How stupid can people be?

Re: Obvious!

At what point does one become "safe"? I am sure we have people on this forum who have never taken a boat course in their lives BUT have 20 years of experience.

If the person in charge of the boat in question is an idiot then no course in the world is going to make him a safe boater any more than passing your driving test makes you a safe driver.

I am very wary of letting the government stick thier fingers into pleasure boating, it will only lead to increased cost, increased beaucracy and reduced freedom.

IMHO of course

Steve D

<hr width=100% size=1>No. I was right the first time....
 
Re: Obvious!

There was also a story of a very safety concious boater, trainee yacht master as well. Who had to have the wheel renched out of his hand, for doing fourty odd knots in a massivly over loaded boat!! I think he should be put in jail...../forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

<hr width=100% size=1> <font color=blue>No one can force me to come here.<font color=red> I'm a volunteer!!.<font color=blue>

Haydn
 
Re: Obvious!

I understand what you are saying, but on a road you know that the 'majority' of people have undergone training and passed a test, and when you get in a car with a driver you would know that they have reached a certain standard. Of course they could be a mad, bad or whatever driver, but should still be at the basic standard to pass that test, what we don't know is what on earth would happen if we had NO test and these pratts were out there without training.

Now when you go and get an a boat, whether it be a friends or a friend of a friends, you don't know what you are getting yourself into. Imagine if the mad, bad or whatever car driver has just parked in the car park and is the now the 'untrained' skipper of the boat you are about to get on, wants to impress you and you are heading out to sea!!

Can you now see what nightmare could unfold? There is NO EXCUSE why the basics of safety should not be compulsary for skippers. The person above most probably has no lifejackets, concern about the weather, tides, emergency equipment, MOB practice skills (e.g. recovering you without chopping you up in the props /forums/images/icons/wink.gif) and may overload the boat and drive in an unsafe manner. Your life is now in the pratt's hands, by the time you realise he is a pratt you are perhaps a mile out to sea!

The other answer is for passengers to feel that it is 'Accepted' and 'Cool' to expect a full safety briefing by the proposed skipper, with him/her showing you where the safety equipment is and how to operate it, and with him/her also giving a summary of his experience that makes you feel comfortable, this would then flush out the pratts. I would recommend that any person who is going on a boat for the first time with an unknown skipper, who doesn't 'offer' the briefing, to be wary and up front and ask where the safefty equipment is, how the VHF works, the proposed proceedure for a MOB or engine failure. If an emergency happens then you won't have time to argue the reasons why there are no lifejackets, fire extinguisher or VHF on board /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

Safe boating to all /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Re: Obvious!

I agree, read my latest post with a proposed safety check for passengers /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Re: Obvious!

Well that is another 'wives tale' that proves you have to have the full facts before jumping to conclusions /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Saw an aerial shot of the scene this a.m., looks like a 23' Dawncraft, not the sort of boat to take that many passengers IMHO, even on a canal where it is best suited for use.

David


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Re: Obvious!

I'm not not going to enter the debate re compulsory testing etc - although I have my own views on it. Over this weekend I was instructing a Powerboat Level 2 course. There were 5 people doing the course and interestingly enough only 1 of them had a boat and that had been collected only the night before the course. The other 4 were all going to buy boats but wanted to do the course first. 2 of the group in fact wanted to bear boat charter prior to decideing on what boat to buy. The other interesting thing was that apart from one guys son in his 20's, all the others were more mature. It seems that with age come awarness of the potential dangers. How do you point this out to the younger members of the "I think we'll go a buy a boat" group who don't think it's cool to get trained? From my observations its this group who need the training the most. You real notice it when teaching the slow speed work and "little" motorboats come pass leaving huge washes within about 10 feet of where you are operating.



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Re: Obvious!

I think you are right, it is awareness. If you don't realise what you are doing is affecting others e.g. wash, who is to blame? The person will say, well I was never taught that, and he is right, there is no compulsion. There are so many things I have learnt from my courses and others on here and ribnet, it would perhaps have taken me 5 years to learn. Now others who don't use these facilities to learn, are they bad, of course not, they may not have a computer or whatever. These people need guidance, and I am afraid the only way is compulsory minimum standards. This can be done in a fun simple easy to understand way, not long boring jobs for the boys courses, but needs to be introduced as a thing society comes to expect from anyone skippering a boat with passengers on board.

I would be interested to know what absolute basic skills or knowledge that any forum member would expect a skipper to have, training or not, before they would let any member of their family on a boat with them.

In fact I will start a new thread just on this subject to save blocking this one /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Happy1 on 08/09/2003 12:04 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
Re: back to the subject a bit

I think a lot depends on the circumstances. From the pic it almost seems as tho the boat stayed tied to the pontton. So one wd have to be a very sad git to do safety briefings.



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Re: back to the subject a bit

Well then I must be sad /forums/images/icons/wink.gif Say for example a fire starts on your boat, e.g. BBQ or whatever is possible and there are people below decks, do they know where the fire equipment is? the escape hatch? I think it's time people reflected on their responsibilities, you would never give a lecture to newcomers without going through the safety briefing in a building that is strange to them.

As far as I am concerned as soon as they step on your boat YOU as skipper are responsible for their safety. It would be very interesting at court I am sure, trying to explain that you are not the skipper until you cast off /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Re: Oh yeah?

well, i remeber on the pontoon at mercury, we cd've all got on board your boat. You didn't give any saftey briefings to anyone as far as I saw. In fact, you flashed up the generator, and used a 240-volt dometic toaster on a finger pontoon within a few feet of a petrol powered boat. Is all your sermonising just a load of hot air? I think it might be!

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Re: Oh yeah?

I am just trying to get people to think, I am not holier than thow (if that's how you spell it), I am just putting up a discussion. It's just a matter of responsibility if something goes tits up and you end up in court, you need to have been aware of the responsibilites and answer why you made certain decisions. If people know some and can discuss them on here we will all learn, could be from experience or other knowledge e.g. starting a generator and making toast on a finger pontoon even /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Re: So obvious?

If you were taught about wash, then, how come we saw you rip out of Yarmouth Roads the other weekend? You need to be much further off before you open her up, as you were:

a) still in the area where lots of boats were converging, and

b) close enough to the visitors' buoys to create a nasty wake

Just a small point, Pete, but wash goes back and out a long way, and affects people in other situation other than manouvering in the marina...

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Re: So obvious?

I too don't like this blame culture, but there is a difference between an accident and stupidity.

Many years ago Neil Kinnock rolled his virtually brand new Ford Sierra and wrote it off, the reaction was one of sympathy. I cannot remember the details but I believe he was returning to his constituency after a late night session in the commons. Contrast his treatment with that of the man who fell asleep and drove down a banking onto the railway line and caused a dissrailment. he was portrayed as a low life who cheated on his wife and looked at porn on the internet (as if that has anything to do with anything). He was sent to prison.

What was wrong with this particular case was that the punishment was given for the type of person and more importantly for the consequences of his actions. This is where I fundamentally disagree with the application of the law. The fact that one man caused a dissrailment and the other involved no third parties was luck or bad luck. The punishment should have been the same in either case.

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Re: link

it seems that the boat was a Norman 23, and they were watching a firework display so they might all have been on deck. 15 people on deck on a 23 would seem a lot, but then its hind sight. Also I belive they were warned that they where overloaded by a safety boat at the display. The skipper is propably in big trouble and no doubt we will get calls for all boats to be marked for max number of people on board now.
However I can recall pictures in the boating mags of a cruise in company where a boat had a deck covered in people!!, gentlemen there but for the grace of god go all of us.

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Re: link

I once had a party river cruise from that very same marina. 23 folks on board. Mind you I dont think my p35 was any where near sinking!

<hr width=100% size=1> <font color=blue>No one can force me to come here.<font color=red> I'm a volunteer!!.<font color=blue>

Haydn
 
Re: link

Blimey i wish I had 23 friends.Wait hang on thats 23 more drinkers .On second thoughts.

<hr width=100% size=1>Two boats please one here n one in the Med
 
Re: So obvious?

I wasn't there at the time but don't forget that a boat on the plane creates far less wash than one that is travelling at semi-displacement speed. If the situation was such that the speed by itself was a danger in a congested area then that is obviously different.

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Re: So obvious?

Perhaps a guest was driving, it can be wrong to jump to conclusions /forums/images/icons/wink.gif Anyway I didn't see anything happen that was either against any speed limit or affected any other boat or I would have mentioned it.

Anyway perhaps some of the 'perfect' people should realise that you can't learn everything in a season, in fact according to some it takes a lifetime of trials and errors as training it seems is a waste of time, and those certificates mean bugger all.

I'm afraid with the system the way it is, and all the untrained people out there, who are welcomed with open arms by most on this forum for having no training whatsoever as a right, some will be moaning and bitching for the rest of their lives /forums/images/icons/wink.gif


<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
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