How Old is Your Engine?

ian38_39 said:
It makes you wonder why the horse and cart was replaced doesn't it?
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I think this thread is starting to paint a misleading picture.

When we were seeking a replacement for the Ford Dover engines we evaluated three bang up to date motors as likely contenders, all had a B-50 life far superior to the Dover.

Why? Because over the last twenty years our abilility to machine to very accurate and repeatable tolerances has increased twentyfold. For example the Dover had to use wrist pins which were matched to individual pistons, this was James Watt technology (Only just a little better than horse and cart).

Hate the term less stressed, whilst I would agree that the use of LDA (Light Duty Automove) engines in boats has led to a number of reliability issues, the quality and durability of mid range engines has made dramatic improvements. The old US hang up regarding high rotational speeds and critical piston speeds was debunked many years ago.

If I were considering re-power of one of say Hauley V today I would be replacing a 14 litre N/A 1,800 rpm motor with a 9 litre turbocharged/intercooled 2,600 rpm engine, without compromising 25,000 hr life to overhaul.
 
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I have a 16years 2.5 litre diesel. 100 000miles in a LT and now 6years 320h in my boat. Elektronics and wastegate turbo removed. Increased power from 85hp to 130hp

About turbocharged engines. I remember in 1982 my father had a VW pickup at work .1.6 50hp diesel only made 10 000 miles between failure. Sylinder head failing.

5 years later he got the same car with a similar 1.6 litre with turbocharger 70hp. Same driver same load but the engine lasted 80 000miles without any problems

The company i work fore have had engines with 4 valves pr sylinder turbo and intercooling since late 50s. Lots of them still runs today. One on a ferry claims 230 000h with the original cylinder. So there are hope for a turbo engine aswell.
 
I would agree with Latestarter about the improvements in machining to much tighter tolerances, repeatedly.

In addition i would also mention the considerable improvements in materials, particularly those used in engine manufacture, much higher quality, lighter, and able to cope much better with higher outputs per litre.

Electronics have played a significant part in engine life, correctly metered fuel which is so accurate compared to older engines, much lower emissions for higher outputs, and accurate monitoring of most engine functions.

Improved materials and technologies have led to many other developments, much higher quality lubricants, longer lasting anti-freeze, improved transmission fluids, and even friction reducing technologies applied to engines and transmissions. All these things contribute to better engines, and allow the future developments to be equally as exciting.
 
Assassin said:
I would agree with Latestarter about the improvements in machining to much tighter tolerances, repeatedly.

In addition i would also mention the considerable improvements in materials, particularly those used in engine manufacture, much higher quality, lighter, and able to cope much better with higher outputs per litre.

Electronics have played a significant part in engine life, correctly metered fuel which is so accurate compared to older engines, much lower emissions for higher outputs, and accurate monitoring of most engine functions.

Improved materials and technologies have led to many other developments, much higher quality lubricants, longer lasting anti-freeze, improved transmission fluids, and even friction reducing technologies applied to engines and transmissions. All these things contribute to better engines, and allow the future developments to be equally as exciting.
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Very interesting is how we see diesel engine development Vs the perception that boaters have regarding modern engines, particularly with regard to electronics. If you have access to warranty data it can be seen that electronic engines have a far lower claim level then mechanical engines.

My son thinks me a compete saddo whan I stand on a railway station platform listening and watching a modern diesel pull away, driver gives the motor the beans, no smoke, torque converter lugs the brains out of the motor almost to stall before train gathers speed, still no visible smoke just a heat haze. All taken for granted, actually represents many thousands of hours of work by very clever people.

Yes like Assasin I view the future not with distain, but as exiting.
 
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Ben,

Remember I said EXITING not EXCITING and their lies the clue...You are competent enough to perform task on your own.

Sadly one modern trend is that engines seem to get wider and wider. We know all about sqeezing QSB's into a Fairey hull and the impact on service access!

One aspect of all modern engines which drives me nuts is the influence of the people who want it to pretty not practical.

When the Southampton show comes up take a look an the engine stands, try and work out how it is possible to remove the lube filter on a certain engine without spilling the contents over the engine. Or another which requires removal of the heat exchanger to service the raw water pump, at least this ensures regular heat exchanger cleaning, list is endless. I rarely go to shows anymore, so stand personel can rest easy!
 
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"But how big would your two old technology diesels have to be to get your 40' planning hull to 30 knots"
If the engines are low revving and under stressed they are bound to last a lot longer but what is the point if you can't even fit them in the boat and if you could they were heavy enough to sink the boat?
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A completely fair point. New tech engines would be a fair better choice, indeed I await more systems with a diesel/electric setup allowing battery drive under certain circumstances. The remarks on precision of build are also very valid. If I were to re-engine Jedi, and cash were not part of the problem, it would be with the newest and most advanced lumps that were viable to give me >=150hp per shaft, and I would expect a lot of space to become available. I even thought last year about 2 x 4 pot turbocharged common rail Peugeot engines because a contact could get two very low mileage ones cheaply from writeoffs, but too much palavah and not enough grunt.

But: if anything went wrong, could it be repaired, or would it be done on a service by replacement basis? Based on a comment by our usual car garage: "this is not intended to be repaired, you bin it and put in a new one"
 
burgundyben said:
I sometimes think this is used as an excuse by the motor trade for being behind the curve on learning how to deal with newer technology.
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There is a worrying trend with SOME modern engines regarding repairability which I have ranted on about before. I looked at a failed 13 liter 800 hp ish motor last year. Water inlet had become obstructed with poly bag. Raw water bump had burned up the impeller and head gasket had blown as a result of overheat. Big job but not a huge deal under normal circumstances however the blown gasket had torched the cylinder the bock slightly.

However the numpty who had designed this masterpiece had not designed overhead cam drive to allow for any change in head/block tolerance, cost of new block rendered repair non viable. Never forget what YOU have to pay for a new engine bears no relationship to what the builder pays.

Almost thirty years ago Detroit Diesel thought about this when they did the Series 60 and added an adjustable gear in the overhead cam drive, to take account on small changes in head block tolerance, probably added $10 to the engine manufacturing cost.
 
Latestarter1 said:
My son thinks me a compete saddo whan I stand on a railway station platform listening and watching a modern diesel pull away, driver gives the motor the beans, no smoke, torque converter lugs the brains out of the motor almost to stall before train gathers speed, still no visible smoke just a heat haze. All taken for granted, actually represents many thousands of hours of work by very clever people.
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Welcome in the saddo club!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w8GGWQdyfA&feature=related
 
Wish the trains running the main east coast line were as good as that-arrive in Inverness blasting clouds of poorly burnt fuel as a result of poorly serviced injectors.
Break down frequently between Kings Cross and Inverness.
Now my 33 year old Mercedes OM636 is a different matter-boat was laid up ashore for eighteen months but on freshly charged battery got a straight start.
Engine never been reconned and still delivering 80psi day in and day out!
 
ffiill said:
Wish the trains running the main east coast line were as good as that-arrive in Inverness blasting clouds of poorly burnt fuel as a result of poorly serviced injectors.
Break down frequently between Kings Cross and Inverness.
Now my 33 year old Mercedes OM636 is a different matter-boat was laid up ashore for eighteen months but on freshly charged battery got a straight start.
Engine never been reconned and still delivering 80psi day in and day out!
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Not injectors, just poorly matched Napier turbomachinery, we haqve learned a huge amount about turbocharging in the 40 years since the Paxman Valetas were designed.

All Paxmans pretty much out of service, sadly replaced by new German MTU 16V 4000 engines which will not blast clouds of black smoke when arriving at Inverness and are far more reliable.

I expect there is a thread somewhere with people saying how wonderful the Paxmans were now they are all gone, pretty much like the start of this thread.
 
Latestarter:

The reason we welcome the advances in technology is that we are both engineers by profession, and understand the principles and workings of such things, while many do not, nor want to.

This leads to a much larger and very significant problem; apathy, the general public as an entity do not understand engineering, what it gives them, and what it does to make their lives easier. They do not understand that technologies have to be invented, materials technologists have to design and manufacture the new materials at reasonable costs, designers have to design the products to be practical and usable and available to consumers at reasonable costs.

While not wishing to be political, just factual; under the last Labour Government we lost one third of manufacturing and one quarter of engineering in the UK. Based on this fact alone i often wonder how the public would have reacted to this if they were more aware of engineering.

For the last few years we have been promoting engineering through one of my professional bodies, and it is amazing how little is taught about engineering. I actually stood up in school and addressed around 100 15/16 year olds, i asked them about engineering and asked them to give me everything they had which has been engineered, i actually got nothing.

I then asked them to give me their mobile phones, laptops, pens, pencils, books, chairs, and desks as they are all engineered products, and not one of them understood; i then asked them to all get undressed and give me their clothes. This caused some consternation until i told them i was only joking, we then had a very interesting discussion about engineering, its various fields, and what part it played in everyday products they take for granted.

By the end of this discussion they were all buzzing, they now had an idea of what engineering does for them, how things are conceived, designed, developed, and manufactured; but most of all how engineering is an integral part of life. Many said that in two hours of open and honest discussions they had learned more about engineering than they had in their very short lives, and many came up to me after the discussion and asked why they were not taught about things so instrumental in their lives.
 
A sermon from the Mount ?

"we are both engineers by profession, and understand the principles and workings of such things"
"the general public as an entity do not understand engineering"
"They do not understand that technologies have to be invented"



That has certainly got the ordinary man on the Clapham omnibus banged to rights.
Anything else you would like to hand down from on high,a stone tablet of some description would probably be most effective.
 
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oldgit said:
"we are both engineers by profession, and understand the principles and workings of such things"
"the general public as an entity do not understand engineering"
"They do not understand that technologies have to be invented"



That has certainly got the ordinary man on the Clapham omnibus banged to rights.
Anything else you would like to hand down from on high,a stone tablet of some description would probably be most effective.
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Actually I do not think the posting was intended to sound in any way offensive.

I used to lecture at a technolgy college, whilst in a previous life I was qualified to represent the interests of UK engine manufacturers to EU legislators it was deemed a requirement to have further qualifications in order to teach. I was prepared to go through the silly process, however I did not bother, why? Possibly two or three out of a class of twenty had any had any passion for the subject. We seem to have an education system which turns out a breed which treats technology (computers exepted ) subjects with derision.

Likewise many UK boaters have little interest is the mechanical workings under their feet. In the US it is totally different owners are almost obsessive about standards of engineering fit out, you only have to look at a Grand Banks or similar. A general fear of all things electronic also pervades the marine leasure market, is this connected to the general lack of passion for all things mechanical in this country???
 
I started off in engineering (RR Filton) but ended up in IT. My son has been doing engineering options at school and college for the last 3 years and enjoys almost every minute of it. So do I, help with homework brings back fond memories and exposes me to technologies that I'd quite like to play with..

Engineering is unfashionable: and the media is almost entirely to blame, for giving it a nerdy image. Bring back The Great Egg Race!
 
Do you not feel that the fear of all things electronic is perpetuated by the £300 an hour bill for the man with the laptop to turn off the get you home feature that did not have any other reason for turning on than because it could?

Having been involved in manufacturing for the last 30 years I sort of have an outline understanding of the principles of engineering, still doesn't mean I agree with overcomplicating things if there is no significant gain from the technology.
 
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Having been involved in manufacturing for the last 30 years I sort of have an outline understanding of the principles of engineering, still doesn't mean I agree with overcomplicating things if there is no significant gain from the technology
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Chips with everything!
Get you home mode wont allow the owner to make his own call: a bad thing, and I suspect that the liability lawyers are involved somewhere.
 
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