How much performance loss is there between good tri-radial dacron sails and mid-level laminate?

[Chris 249]

So i’m looking for new sails for our J/36. The boat is used for long weekend cruising but I’m going to start doing some semi-serious racing, normally doublehanded up to 350 miles. We will also be doing cruising, including going down across Bass Strait (yes, we’re in Oz) and out into the Coral Sea. The plan is for a minimalist sail wardrobe, because our serious racing is in small SMODs and once one gets into an arms race the sky is the limit and it’s not worth it. It’s obvious we’ll be at a disadvantage in terms of sails but we’d like to chase the big-budget small boats and once or twice snap them up if they get it wrong or we get lucky.

The people who will be on board have plenty of tinware from national championships etc (and have sailed some of the same SMODs as the top Aussie singlehanders, with similar results) and significant offshore experience so whatever cloth is used it will be trimmed appropriately.

We currently have a 105% No. 1 in Flex Sport laminate. Sailmakers I trust, dinghy champs with big boat experience, are giving me a very wide range of options and opinions ranging from DP’s Pro Radial dacron through to mid-upper level laminates. So does anyone have a good estimate of how much we could lose by going to the Pro Radial dacron or low-end cruising laminate compared to mid-range laminate? Is it two minutes in an afternoon race? Ten? One? Thirty seconds?

Obviously some times a five-second speed deficit may mean missing a shift, then another five-second speed deficit down the next leg means having to duck three boats and so the losses compound - but for the sake of the purchase decision I’m just wondering about speed loss and not the effects of that speed loss.

Given that one only loses about 2% in rating (IIRC) by going from 150 to 105% in headsail size and therefore losing maybe 15% in sail area, I find it hard to see that moving to a slower cloth will have a drastic effect overall; sure in a hot OD or IRC fleet we all like to turn up to events with crisp sails but when you give a top sailor some older sails they still go very well.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I’d say 1-2 mins an hour in light winds, but a lot more in heavy airs. Obviously in any total one design fleet the spread is more than 2 mins an hour, so the habitual winner in any fleet can still do well with dacron sails. But, IMHO you’ll be a follower, not a leader, without some thoroughly decent laminate sails.

 

[flaming]

Laminates at this sort of level are not about being quicker on 1st hoist as much as still being quicker as time goes on. A good Dacron sail and a decent laminate sail made by the same sailmaker to the same shape should be almost indistinguishable the first time they are hoisted. The difference starts to appear as the sails are used. Gradually the dacron sails need more and more halyard to get an acceptable draft, and the shape in general just starts going. Cruisers would find the shape perfectly acceptable for years, people trying to win races... not so much. Meanwhile the laminate, if appropriately cared for, will still have the same shape that it started with for quite a few years.

My own use is not a million miles from yours, although skewed the other way. In that I am principally racing the boat but with 2 small kids also starting to do some cruising. We do circa 30 race days per season, and I guess by solent standards we're taking it reasonably seriously, though nothing compared to the capes etc. Using North 3Di, but the "entry level" cloth. 3Di RAW | High Performance Composite Race Sails | North Sails i.e. the 360... I'm getting at least 4 competitive seasons out of a main, more like 5 or 6 out of a jib. Friends who have switched from North to Doyle or UK, using similar sort of tech are reporting similar sort of results.

And when we "retire" a sail there is nothing at all wrong with the cloth. It's just that the shape has started to slip that little bit... Honestly, being previously used to string sails that spent as much time in the loft as they did up the rig after the 1st season, this is a revelation.

Though this should come with the massive caveat that our levels of UV will be nothing compared to yours...

When you talk about a minimalist sail wardrobe, the other thing to think about is how many jibs. And, whilst aware that I might start to sound like a salesman... The new thinking on "structured luff" sails is remarkable in this context. North call it Helix, Doyle call it "structured luff". Basically they put a lot more load bearing fibres in the luff, and the result of this is that you can run a lot more halyard tension and change the shape of the sail quite a lot more. I only have 1 jib with it so far, but every new one I buy will have it now. For us it means that we were able to specify a J1 that when set with minimal halyard tension is really very full, and much more powerful in the 4-7 range than our old J1, but by cranking the halyard the same sail is good up to 12 knots if necessary, where the old J1 was getting a bit much at 10. In your context it would mean that you could be considerably more competitive with 1 or 2 jibs, and offshore need far fewer changes.

What I did was buy the cheapest Dacron main I could for cruising, and use the original 2012 J3 that came with the boat to cruise. Every time I put that sail up I find myself thinking "absolutely nothing wrong with this sail...." In your shoes, I'd have a long hard look at your current sails and ask yourself if you'd be changing them just for cruising. And if not, consider keeping them for the cruising duty, and getting some "more racy" sails that if you spare from the cruising duty and look after, will be competitive for many seasons to come.

 

[Ingwe]

As above the real difference is mostly to longevity of shape on the better sails. If you are looking at DP based fabrics I would say that GPL lite skin is worth the extra vs a tafetta backed sail (assuming your sail maker doesn't say it has a UV problem where you are) as it seems to take misstreatment much better, which is especially usefull on jibs.

 

[Mark-1]

I’d say 1-2 mins an hour in light winds, but a lot more in heavy airs. Obviously in any total one design fleet the spread is more than 2 mins an hour, so the habitual winner in any fleet can still do well with dacron sails. But, IMHO you’ll be a follower, not a leader, without some thoroughly decent laminate sails.

I've been thinking this recently. Sometimes I race my daughter's dinghy with it's biggest rig in club races. That sail is threadbare, only just hanging together, you can see the draft is way too far back from three decades worth of stretching.

Google concurs with your estimate. As far as can be quantified a new sail is worth 2 mins over an hour. (Ok, in this case I'm talking about the difference between knackered and different materials but it's a similar concept.)

The thing is 2 minutes in an hour would make me a race winner almost every single time despite being 10kg too heavy for the boat.

Can I really be a £1000 sail away from Club Race stardom? It seems to good to be true, but all the others are all regularly buying new sails. I doubt they're doing that for a laugh.

I don't want to win races enough to blow a grand but I ponder the question from time to time. (Of course, the sail will literally tear apart soon so maybe fate will make me a winner.)

 

[dunedin]

I've been thinking this recently. Sometimes I race my daughter's dinghy with it's biggest rig in club races. That sail is threadbare, only just hanging together, you can see the draft is way too far back from three decades worth of stretching.

…

The draft sagging too far back, followed by a hooked leech, is a real killer for performance (and your legs if a hiking dinghy). Creates more drag and more heeling which is a double negative, whereas a better shaped sail gives more drive in the right direction.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Perhaps its the higher stress, but we’d struggle to get a decent shape in a dacron sail on day 1 if it is blowing. But certainly, dacron sails wear out. In the day racing one design Dacron is compulsory. and to stay competitive, we’ll start the season with a set, and replace them for Cowes week.

 

[flaming]

Perhaps its the higher stress, but we’d struggle to get a decent shape in a dacron sail on day 1 if it is blowing. But certainly, dacron sails wear out. In the day racing one design Dacron is compulsory. and to stay competitive, we’ll start the season with a set, and replace them for Cowes week.

Which is why dacron being compulsory for boats that are raced hard is not a money saving policy....

 

[Egret]

Can an older sail be unstitched and re- stitched a bit on a few seams to pull the draft back forward or is that not an option - if so, which seams and which end?

 

[flaming]

Can an older sail be unstitched and re- stitched a bit on a few seams to pull the draft back forward or is that not an option - if so, which seams and which end?

Yes. I've had a couple of 3Di sails recut now. I've no idea how though, as try as I might I cannot see any join! Shape is definitely better though.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Which is why dacron being compulsory for boats that are raced hard is not a money saving policy....

You’ve got to admit that carbon sails would look odd on an XOD though. And for the mid fleet guys, being forced to invest thousands in sails just to be in the top ten in their home fleet would kill the class stone dead, a shame after 110 years. The class rules are carefully watched to avoid cliff edges like that.

 

[flaming]

You’ve got to admit that carbon sails would look odd on an XOD though. And for the mid fleet guys, being forced to invest thousands in sails just to be in the top ten in their home fleet would kill the class stone dead, a shame after 110 years. The class rules are carefully watched to avoid cliff edges like that.

It's quite possible to have laminates that would retain a lot of the look of the existing sails.

Take the point about the clif edge, but I think my point is that the chap with the dacron sails would be just as fast when his were newish. Just the laminates would last longer. Honestly at that size I'd sort of expect a set of laminates to last at least 3 seasons in "could win Cowes week" quality, and probably 10 in "top 10 in local fleet" quality.
Suspect overall bills would drop....

 

[Chiara’s slave]

It's quite possible to have laminates that would retain a lot of the look of the existing sails.

Take the point about the clif edge, but I think my point is that the chap with the dacron sails would be just as fast when his were newish. Just the laminates would last longer. Honestly at that size I'd sort of expect a set of laminates to last at least 3 seasons in "could win Cowes week" quality, and probably 10 in "top 10 in local fleet" quality.
Suspect overall bills would drop....

I suspect you’re right. But short term, everyone pays more. And it would take a great deal of effort to overcome perceptions. And it’s true, we sell on our used sails to newcomers etc, making it pretty cheap for them. All the sponsored sailors in the class do this. So if those part used sails weee next to useless, or were 6 times rarer, if we only needed replacements every 3 years, it would have a knock on effect. For us, it would be very beneficial of course. We have a great deal of trouble getting sails that work the way we want them to, then persuading the sailmaker that we want absolutely nothing changed next time.

 

[oldbloke]

I've been thinking this recently. Sometimes I race my daughter's dinghy with it's biggest rig in club races. That sail is threadbare, only just hanging together, you can see the draft is way too far back from three decades worth of stretching.

Google concurs with your estimate. As far as can be quantified a new sail is worth 2 mins over an hour. (Ok, in this case I'm talking about the difference between knackered and different materials but it's a similar concept.)

The thing is 2 minutes in an hour would make me a race winner almost every single time despite being 10kg too heavy for the boat.

Can I really be a £1000 sail away from Club Race stardom? It seems to good to be true, but all the others are all regularly buying new sails. I doubt they're doing that for a laugh.

I don't want to win races enough to blow a grand but I ponder the question from time to time. (Of course, the sail will literally tear apart soon so maybe fate will make me a winner.)

Maybe £300 for the national champion's cast off is the compromise

 

[Puffin10032]

A complicating factor is that not all polyester sailcloth is equal. Using something like DP Radial Pro will result in far less stretch than constructing your radial sail in a balanced cloth due to its crimpless warp. Another alternative would be a hybrid cloth containing either Vectran or Dyneema fibres. These cloths retain the sail shape much longer than a pure polyester woven cloth.

 

[Chris 249]

Laminates at this sort of level are not about being quicker on 1st hoist as much as still being quicker as time goes on. A good Dacron sail and a decent laminate sail made by the same sailmaker to the same shape should be almost indistinguishable the first time they are hoisted. The difference starts to appear as the sails are used. Gradually the dacron sails need more and more halyard to get an acceptable draft, and the shape in general just starts going. Cruisers would find the shape perfectly acceptable for years, people trying to win races... not so much. Meanwhile the laminate, if appropriately cared for, will still have the same shape that it started with for quite a few years.

Luckily, that suits what I’m looking for because shorthanding the J/36 is very much an experiment that may flop. Whatever happens I want to go for a minimalist wardrobe (apart from everything else we don’t want to weekend cruise with a boat full of sails) but it may be that we’re so totally off the pace against the SunFasts, J/99s and custom boats that even 3di won’t fix it.

Hopefully the “fast cruising” sails will be quick enough to give me a chance to work out whether further investment into a racing set will be worth it.

Honestly, being previously used to string sails that spent as much time in the loft as they did up the rig after the 1st season, this is a revelation.

I’ve had similar experiences with string sails that were unreliable so I’m a bit gun-shy of them. The Flex Sport on our No.1 on the other hand is impressive and the carbon sails on our Formula 18 cat have been great. In contrast the string/Mylar sails on the Tasar are liable to just fall to bits at a certain stage. We’re not racing it these days but I have some near-perfect Tasar sails carefully rolled around tubes. If they behave like some string sails and degrade totally when not being used I’ll be very annoyed.

It’s one of those things where the marketing talk is so pervasive that I find it hard to believe any of if and therefore my wallet stays in my pocket.

Though this should come with the massive caveat that our levels of UV will be nothing compared to yours...

When you talk about a minimalist sail wardrobe, the other thing to think about is how many jibs. And, whilst aware that I might start to sound like a salesman... The new thinking on "structured luff" sails is remarkable in this context. North call it Helix, Doyle call it "structured luff". Basically they put a lot more load bearing fibres in the luff, and the result of this is that you can run a lot more halyard tension and change the shape of the sail quite a lot more. I only have 1 jib with it so far, but every new one I buy will have it now. For us it means that we were able to specify a J1 that when set with minimal halyard tension is really very full, and much more powerful in the 4-7 range than our old J1, but by cranking the halyard the same sail is good up to 12 knots if necessary, where the old J1 was getting a bit much at 10. In your context it would mean that you could be considerably more competitive with 1 or 2 jibs, and offshore need far fewer changes.

What I did was buy the cheapest Dacron main I could for cruising, and use the original 2012 J3 that came with the boat to cruise. Every time I put that sail up I find myself thinking "absolutely nothing wrong with this sail...." In your shoes, I'd have a long hard look at your current sails and ask yourself if you'd be changing them just for cruising. And if not, consider keeping them for the cruising duty, and getting some "more racy" sails that if you spare from the cruising duty and look after, will be competitive for many seasons to come.

Very interesting - I was aware of structured luffs but I thought they were only for Code Zeroes etc. I’ll look into it, thanks.

I would be changing the current main for cruising because it’s getting annoying to sail with, is so slow that we won’t be able to determine whether the boat would be competitive even if it had “proper” racing sails, and may soon be getting to the stage where I wouldn’t trust it for a cruise across Bass Strait which we may do in a few months. Adding to the quandary is the fact that the luff is on a Harken roller car system which is brilliant, but makes changing mains a long and annoying job. And with the boat on a swing mooring 4 1/4 hours drive from home, storage would be an issue.

If the boat proves to be close enough to competitive that a racing main would be worthwhile I’ll deal with those issues later. My suspicion is that we won’t be fully competitive no matter how much money goes into sails because it’s an older boat up against new ones with more time, effort and money spent on them. So we’ll just try to play with the second or third division, try to be best of the older boats, and perhaps snag the occasional good result with the “fast cruising” set if possible. The thing is that although I love shorthanding and offshore, it’s logical to put my truly competitive effort into the small one designs where I’m already well kitted up and very competitive when fully trained up.

 

[flaming]

If the boat proves to be close enough to competitive that a racing main would be worthwhile I’ll deal with those issues later. My suspicion is that we won’t be fully competitive no matter how much money goes into sails because it’s an older boat up against new ones with more time, effort and money spent on them. So we’ll just try to play with the second or third division, try to be best of the older boats, and perhaps snag the occasional good result with the “fast cruising” set if possible. The thing is that although I love shorthanding and offshore, it’s logical to put my truly competitive effort into the small one designs where I’m already well kitted up and very competitive when fully trained up.

If you're racing IRC, then a well sailed older boat has opportunities. My understanding is that the J36 and J35 are somewhat similar. There was for a while a very well sailed J35 around here. Was almost untouchable in the light, but then they chopped it in for a new J112. For sure you'd not have a lot of chance against a Sunfast in a point to point downwind race in breeze. But a race with a lot of light air beating, or medium wind fetching and I'd give you a real chance.

From what you've said re swapping main and storing sails, and spending your money for you..... Go for a good quality laminate main, a good quality laminate AP jib and then a light jib for the 0-10 knot range in whatever light cloth suits your budget. That shouldn't embarrass you, and also give you a good set of cruising sails. Going Helix etc is the next step up, and would probably move the jib crossover to circa 15 knots, but weirdly I think might suit your use a bit less, as the cruising use wouldn't be as clear, and by pushing the crossover up the range you might end up with a great 8-15 jib but not really a great very light jib.

Spend whatever you have left in the budget on kites. If you think you'll spend a lot of time reaching in 5-15 get a code zero. If that's likely to be rare in the events you're targeting get the smallest kite you can realistically set on the boat to use as a "kite to put up when putting a kite up looks like a distinctly marginal idea". Having that sail when others are too overpowered to hoist their big sails and have to go to jib only can win races. Mine came from facebook marketplace and cost me £200.

 

[michael_w]

Don't forget Hydranet Radial. Bullet proof but expensive.

 

[Chris 249]

If you're racing IRC, then a well sailed older boat has opportunities. My understanding is that the J36 and J35 are somewhat similar. There was for a while a very well sailed J35 around here. Was almost untouchable in the light, but then they chopped it in for a new J112. For sure you'd not have a lot of chance against a Sunfast in a point to point downwind race in breeze. But a race with a lot of light air beating, or medium wind fetching and I'd give you a real chance.

From what you've said re swapping main and storing sails, and spending your money for you..... Go for a good quality laminate main, a good quality laminate AP jib and then a light jib for the 0-10 knot range in whatever light cloth suits your budget. That shouldn't embarrass you, and also give you a good set of cruising sails. Going Helix etc is the next step up, and would probably move the jib crossover to circa 15 knots, but weirdly I think might suit your use a bit less, as the cruising use wouldn't be as clear, and by pushing the crossover up the range you might end up with a great 8-15 jib but not really a great very light jib.

Spend whatever you have left in the budget on kites. If you think you'll spend a lot of time reaching in 5-15 get a code zero. If that's likely to be rare in the events you're targeting get the smallest kite you can realistically set on the boat to use as a "kite to put up when putting a kite up looks like a distinctly marginal idea". Having that sail when others are too overpowered to hoist their big sails and have to go to jib only can win races. Mine came from facebook marketplace and cost me £200.

With respect, the “J1/ J2 / #3 / #4” “ is the thing I’m just not interested in, as noted above. I don’t want to fill the boat with sails - and if we have that many jibs it would be hard to justify not getting a Code Zero, and then a jib top maybe, and then whatever else…..

The whole idea, as noted, is to set an AP No 1 and a No 4 and accept the speed loss. The top shorthanders here import people like the French Classe 40 champ and put them on boats like the custom Lombard 34 that cost 10 times as much as my boat and is owned by someone who moved from a carbon 62 footer, has a Classe 40 in France and a big cruiser back home. We race closely in Lasers but trying to match his boat’s performance is a losing game I have zero interest in playing at the moment.

I don’t think the current laminate jib, which is on a furler, would suit the racing AP role because it has vertical battens and therefore a change between it and a #3 or light #1 would be a right royal PITA. That’s why we have a vertical reef, which lets it set well at the top end.

 

[Chris 249]

I suspect you’re right. But short term, everyone pays more. And it would take a great deal of effort to overcome perceptions. And it’s true, we sell on our used sails to newcomers etc, making it pretty cheap for them. All the sponsored sailors in the class do this. So if those part used sails weee next to useless, or were 6 times rarer, if we only needed replacements every 3 years, it would have a knock on effect. For us, it would be very beneficial of course. We have a great deal of trouble getting sails that work the way we want them to, then persuading the sailmaker that we want absolutely nothing changed next time.

The OD classes I sail use everything from dacron to carbon. The way the cloth affects participation in each class seems to be subject to so many factors that I can’t see how anyone can make a statement one way or the other.

If dacron was such a bad choice for OD sails then the classes that require it would probably not be No 1 and No 2 in the popularity and sales stakes. Mylar/dacron is rarely seen but it’s used in what is probably the #3 best selling class.

IMHO much of the issue with dacron in some classes is people claiming it goes slow faster than it does in those classes. One example is Lasers, where plenty of people who are mid pack will say you need a new sail every championship. Mark Bethwaite, multiple Olympian and world champ, used the same Laser sail to win three Masters worlds - and Mark is a wealthy man who has no need to economise. My brother and I both got into the top 10 in Lasers nationally and won championships against world champs in pre-Olympic days, and we each only ever had one new sail in our entire careers.

One class I sail moved to string mylar and effectively many hulls that would be competitive are no longer worth buying, because the sails fall to bits after a few years, so buying a cheap old boat requires buying new sails and it’s better to buy a mid-market boat that has good sails. In dacron days you could club race with old sails and people could pass on dacron sails with years of life. The string sails fall to bits very quickly so there’s very few to be found. So yes, the top level gets sails that stay fast for longer - but the fleet is far smaller.