How much performance loss is there between good tri-radial dacron sails and mid-level laminate?

[Chris 249]

A complicating factor is that not all polyester sailcloth is equal. Using something like DP Radial Pro will result in far less stretch than constructing your radial sail in a balanced cloth due to its crimpless warp. Another alternative would be a hybrid cloth containing either Vectran or Dyneema fibres. These cloths retain the sail shape much longer than a pure polyester woven cloth.

Thanks. DP Radial Pro is what the sailmaker I’m leaning to is suggesting. He’s a dinghy champion mate/friendly rival, sails on TP52s etc, and also had a boat quite similar to mine on which he used DP Radial Pro. He’s semi-retired nowadays and just making sails for mates so the price is very reasonable indeed, and I’m cautious about going against a sailmaker’s recommendations.

Have you had much experience with DP Pro, or technical knowledge about whether it lives up to the claims? The thing that makes it hard to make decisions is the lack of actual data amongst all the marketing. If sailcloth manufacturers would say, for example, that on a typical boat a jib with their “fast cruise” dacron cloth would suffer a depth increase of 1.5% when the wind built from 10 knots to 20 whereas their cruise laminate would increase by 0.75% and their carbon would not cause increase at all, then I’d have an idea of the tradeoffs in shape.

I’m leaning towards Radial Pro for the main but a higher-tech cloth for the No. 4 to keep draft stable and the after sections nice and flat. I love the way my carbon sails in the smaller boats just sit there with the shape locked in as the breeze builds.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The OD classes I sail use everything from dacron to carbon. The way the cloth affects participation in each class seems to be subject to so many factors that I can’t see how anyone can make a statement one way or the other.

If dacron was such a bad choice for OD sails then the classes that require it would probably not be No 1 and No 2 in the popularity and sales stakes. Mylar/dacron is rarely seen but it’s used in what is probably the #3 best selling class.

IMHO much of the issue with dacron in some classes is people claiming it goes slow faster than it does in those classes. One example is Lasers, where plenty of people who are mid pack will say you need a new sail every championship. Mark Bethwaite, multiple Olympian and world champ, used the same Laser sail to win three Masters worlds - and Mark is a wealthy man who has no need to economise. My brother and I both got into the top 10 in Lasers nationally and won championships against world champs in pre-Olympic days, and we each only ever had one new sail in our entire careers.

One class I sail moved to string mylar and effectively many hulls that would be competitive are no longer worth buying, because the sails fall to bits after a few years, so buying a cheap old boat requires buying new sails and it’s better to buy a mid-market boat that has good sails. In dacron days you could club race with old sails and people could pass on dacron sails with years of life. The string sails fall to bits very quickly so there’s very few to be found. So yes, the top level gets sails that stay fast for longer - but the fleet is far smaller.

I’ve sailed in OD classes most of my life. None that had a choice of sail material from dacron to laminate though. I sail now in the longest running OD class. We are averse to change, lol! But it gets talked about. And one of the things that puts us off change is that performance difference that means every Dacron sail is obsolete the instant you allow laminates. To my mind there are no ifs and buts about it. And in truth the cost equation is probably in favour of laminates, that is the long term view, not the short term. So maybe just thinking about that, is it a year or 2’s competitive life you’re after, or longer term.

 

[Puffin10032]

Thanks. DP Radial Pro is what the sailmaker I’m leaning to is suggesting. He’s a dinghy champion mate/friendly rival, sails on TP52s etc, and also had a boat quite similar to mine on which he used DP Radial Pro. He’s semi-retired nowadays and just making sails for mates so the price is very reasonable indeed, and I’m cautious about going against a sailmaker’s recommendations.

Have you had much experience with DP Pro, or technical knowledge about whether it lives up to the claims? The thing that makes it hard to make decisions is the lack of actual data amongst all the marketing. If sailcloth manufacturers would say, for example, that on a typical boat a jib with their “fast cruise” dacron cloth would suffer a depth increase of 1.5% when the wind built from 10 knots to 20 whereas their cruise laminate would increase by 0.75% and their carbon would not cause increase at all, then I’d have an idea of the tradeoffs in shape.

I’m leaning towards Radial Pro for the main but a higher-tech cloth for the No. 4 to keep draft stable and the after sections nice and flat. I love the way my carbon sails in the smaller boats just sit there with the shape locked in as the breeze builds.

No personal experience of DP Radial Pro but it has a climpless warp. Most of the "stretch" of a woven cloth is caused by the crimped fibres being straightened out under load rather actual stretch. With the loads on a tri-radial sail running along the warp this effect is minimised and the sail will hold its shape for longer. Your friend clearly has good experience of Radial Pro. You could do a lot worse than follow his advice.

 

[flaming]

With respect, the “J1/ J2 / #3 / #4” “ is the thing I’m just not interested in, as noted above. I don’t want to fill the boat with sails - and if we have that many jibs it would be hard to justify not getting a Code Zero, and then a jib top maybe, and then whatever else…..

The whole idea, as noted, is to set an AP No 1 and a No 4 and accept the speed loss. The top shorthanders here import people like the French Classe 40 champ and put them on boats like the custom Lombard 34 that cost 10 times as much as my boat and is owned by someone who moved from a carbon 62 footer, has a Classe 40 in France and a big cruiser back home. We race closely in Lasers but trying to match his boat’s performance is a losing game I have zero interest in playing at the moment.

I don’t think the current laminate jib, which is on a furler, would suit the racing AP role because it has vertical battens and therefore a change between it and a #3 or light #1 would be a right royal PITA. That’s why we have a vertical reef, which lets it set well at the top end.

Ok.

In which case I would have a really good look at the expected performance profile of your boat, vs the boats you expect to be featuring on the podium. You then have a choice - try and make the performance as versatile as possible, accepting that you're unlikely to win any races on pure speed but hoping to be close enough to pick up the occasional good result through tactical genius, or optomise heavily towards your biggest strength. Doing the latter would mean accepting that in other conditions you really won't have a shot, but that in your favoured conditions you should be pretty competitive.

We did this a few years back with the Elan. Realised that with the standard setup we couldn't beat the light wind boats in the light, or the heavy wind boats in the heavy, so needed to pick a lane. Did so by dropping a load of jib area and optomising for the heavy. Then basically when it blew 15+ we were fighting for the win, less than 12 and we were in damage limitation mode.

So, imagine for a second that you had a limitless budget and ability to carry all the sails. Have a good look at where your boat would expect to beat those newer boats if you had absolutely everything. Is it heavy airs upwind? Or perhaps light winds? Then pick your 1 jib to do that job, and do it as well as you can afford.

 

[Dockhead]

Which is why dacron being compulsory for boats that are raced hard is not a money saving policy....

I would say even for many cruising boats.

We switched to "cruising laminates" 11 years ago -- a Bainbridge cloth with carbon and technora, with taffeta on both sides (the difference to "racing" sails). I expected them not to last as long as good Dacron sails but was willing to put up with that for durable good shape.

Well, turns out if anything they last LONGER than good Dacron sails. I replaced the mainsail last year because of UV damage, but both of the jibs I had made are still in very good shape, and that's after 10's of thousands of miles, many of them hard, and some racing.

One of the best things I ever did for my boat, greatly increasing the pleasure of sailing. Considering how long they have lasted, it's not really even much more expensive than Dacron. I don't ever buy another woven sail.

This maybe doesn't translate directly for the OP as he will maybe not want the heavier taffeta covered sails for racing.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

We’ve probably wrecked a set on our XOD this weekend.

That’s more than we should, by rights, be sailing in. That is the wind at Lymington platform on Saturday. But it was our home regatta, so we felt a bit obliged. Laminate sails would stand up to that, but our Dacron sails are stretched.

 

[flaming]

We’ve probably wrecked a set on our XOD this weekend.
View attachment 195802
That’s more than we should, by rights, be sailing in. That is the wind at Lymington platform on Saturday. But it was our home regatta, so we felt a bit obliged. Laminate sails would stand up to that, but our Dacron sails are stretched.

On the same day these 13 year old laminates took us round the island doublehanded fast enough to win it. Coupled with one kite of the same age, and one that was made originally sometime in the 90s we think, and I bought off Facebook marketplace to be a chicken kite.

As the main is our "offshore" main for a boat that seldom does any offshore, then whilst it definitely hasn't had 13 years of use, but it is the only race main we have with reef points, so it does generally come out when it's windy and was our delivery main for years too. The shape is still absolutely fine, but as with all 3DL sails of that era, the plastic is starting to crack, especially at the leach, and it's accumulating patches at an ever increasing rate.

The jib is our J4, and that does get used any time the wind goes above about 22-23 knots. Again, shape is still fine.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Wasted weekend for us, well slightly. A freshly launched restored boat, 2nd race in her was the 25-30kn 1st of Saturdays races. So many little niggles that you only discover by sailing, and the brand new bilge pump packed upon the first beat. The floorboards were floating at the windward mark, and we bloody nearly stuck the bow right in on the bear away. Pumped the whole of the downwind leg by hand. We do this for enjoyment apparently.

 

[Ed Sned]

Flaming, I was behind you down the back of the island (Solan Goose, Farrier F36), holding you at some moments, losing grip of you at others. I had high (possibly unrealistic) hopes of closing in on you a bit on the reach from Bembridge to the ports, but my gennaker tackline block had other ideas, removing the whole pulpit in the process. Very well sailed though, I wouldn't have caught you even if that hadn't happened. Was definitely a spirited sail at times.

 

[flaming]

Flaming, I was behind you down the back of the island (Solan Goose, Farrier F36), holding you at some moments, losing grip of you at others. I had high (possibly unrealistic) hopes of closing in on you a bit on the reach from Bembridge to the ports, but my gennaker tackline block had other ideas, removing the whole pulpit in the process. Very well sailed though, I wouldn't have caught you even if that hadn't happened. Was definitely a spirited sail at times.

Oh we saw your gennaker having a bit of a flappy moment... Wondered what had happened. Hope you get the pulpit fixed!

To be honest we were very much expecting you, and the Farr X2, to come blasting past us down the back of the island. We were faster than I expected! Our time was only 10 minutes slower than our all time fully crewed RTI record, which was last year in the very windy conditions.

 

[Ed Sned]

Easy for me to say this as a cover, but we were being very conservative and the kite stayed firmly in the bag all day. I had a non-sailing friend on board, and am still learning the boat, so it didn't seem to be the right day to explore the boundaries. Still ended up being a depressingly expensive day though (and that's before we talk about the water forced up the exhaust...)

 

[flaming]

It was a bit windy, for sure! Sorry to hear it wound up expensive.

 

[sawduster]

View attachment 195810

On the same day these 13 year old laminates took us round the island doublehanded fast enough to win it. Coupled with one kite of the same age, and one that was made originally sometime in the 90s we think, and I bought off Facebook marketplace to be a chicken kite.

As the main is our "offshore" main for a boat that seldom does any offshore, then whilst it definitely hasn't had 13 years of use, but it is the only race main we have with reef points, so it does generally come out when it's windy and was our delivery main for years too. The shape is still absolutely fine, but as with all 3DL sails of that era, the plastic is starting to crack, especially at the leach, and it's accumulating patches at an ever increasing rate.

The jib is our J4, and that does get used any time the wind goes above about 22-23 knots. Again, shape is still fine.

An interesting point in terminology, I would have described your sails as moulded or string sails rather than laminate sails. Though I realise that the technology is ultimately laminate technology, ie layers glued together, it's quite a different construction method to oriented panels of prebuilt material stitched together in a triradial pattern.

Certainly they look to be in good shape for 3DLs of that age which is good to see. I've been hearing more about filmless moulded/string sails which apparently avoid the delamination issues of film over string
by glueing the taffeta/liteskin straight over the string rather than on top of the film to then later have the film delaminate.

 

[flaming]

An interesting point in terminology, I would have described your sails as moulded or string sails rather than laminate sails. Though I realise that the technology is ultimately laminate technology, ie layers glued together, it's quite a different construction method to oriented panels of prebuilt material stitched together in a triradial pattern.

Certainly they look to be in good shape for 3DLs of that age which is good to see. I've been hearing more about filmless moulded/string sails which apparently avoid the delamination issues of film over string
by glueing the taffeta/liteskin straight over the string rather than on top of the film to then later have the film delaminate.

Fair point on the laminate / moulded distinction.

3DL was superseded by 3Di, which is a filmless moulded sail. The oldest 3Di I have on the boat is also 13 years old, as the tech was brand new when the boat was new and the 1st owner tried one sail, the J3 in it. That sail, despite a long hard life, is still immaculate and in use as my cruising jib. Honestly, every time I put it up I look at it and think "this is just as good as the current J3". It is a bit heavier though, so I suspect that being at the start of the tech they possibly slightly overbuilt it.

 

[Supertramp]

Interesting discussion.

I am reminded of a recent handicap series I crewed in where the overall winner was a twin keel 32ft cruiser with standard sails, competing with several well-honed racing yachts.

The difference (in sails) is most noticeable with identical or evenly matched boats where good sails give you the edge in boat speed and pointing. Otherwise race tactics and good judgements about wind and tide will help offset a fractional speed difference due to sails.

 

[Mark-1]

Interesting discussion.

I am reminded of a recent handicap series I crewed in where the overall winner was a twin keel 32ft cruiser with standard sails, competing with several well-honed racing yachts.

The difference (in sails) is most noticeable with identical or evenly matched boats where good sails give you the edge in boat speed and pointing. Otherwise race tactics and good judgements about wind and tide will help offset a fractional speed difference due to sails.

Is that really true? Google suggests 15% is a reasonable assumption for the performance advantage of new sails. That's a race winning increase even against wildly different boats.

I'd like to know. My sail's several decades old and looks every year of it and more. A guaranteed 15% would mean consistent wins, a "fractional speed difference" less so. I doubt I'd invest the money just to win races but it would be nice to know for sure. (Even better would be an adjusted handicap for sail shite-ness!)

 

[Supertramp]

Is that really true? Google suggests 15% is a reasonable assumption for the performance advantage of new sails. That's a race winning increase even against wildly different boats.

I'd like to know. My sail's several decades old and looks every year of it and more. A guaranteed 15% would mean consistent wins, a "fractional speed difference" less so. I doubt I'd invest the money just to win races but it would be nice to know for sure. (Even better would be an adjusted handicap for sail shite-ness!)

Based on sailing Sigma 33s, good sails make a difference but nothing like 15%. Maybe up to a minute on a 30 minute beat. But the choice of sail cut and size and the trimming expertise of the crew can make even more of a difference.

Several decades old sails probably need replaced and you will perform better, especially to windward in speed and pointing.

 

[flaming]

Based on sailing Sigma 33s, good sails make a difference but nothing like 15%. Maybe up to a minute on a 30 minute beat. But the choice of sail cut and size and the trimming expertise of the crew can make even more of a difference.

Several decades old sails probably need replaced and you will perform better, especially to windward in speed and pointing.

The difference really depends on the type of racing. If you are doing competitive ww/lw racing, then losing a degree or so of height, and 0.1 knot of speed can be the difference between being able to hold a lane off the start line and getting shot out the back. Get into the dirt of a reasonable sized fleet and you'll lose way over a minute in even a 1 mile first leg, and that's your chance of a good result gone.

By contrast passage racing where the start and 1st mile is not as important, and the fleet is likely to spread out a bit more then those slight losses are nothing like as important.

 

[Mark-1]

The difference really depends on the type of racing. If you are doing competitive ww/lw racing, then losing a degree or so of height, and 0.1 knot of speed can be the difference between being able to hold a lane off the start line and getting shot out the back. Get into the dirt of a reasonable sized fleet and you'll lose way over a minute in even a 1 mile first leg, and that's your chance of a good result gone.

By contrast passage racing where the start and 1st mile is not as important, and the fleet is likely to spread out a bit more then those slight losses are nothing like as important.

Which raises the scary idea that all the new sail does is move you into the dirty air of the bunch at the front. Being 2 minutes an hour off the pace means you have clear air.

Reckon I'm gonna keep my money in my pocket! Which I was anyway.

Until it falls apart which won't be long.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The difference really depends on the type of racing. If you are doing competitive ww/lw racing, then losing a degree or so of height, and 0.1 knot of speed can be the difference between being able to hold a lane off the start line and getting shot out the back. Get into the dirt of a reasonable sized fleet and you'll lose way over a minute in even a 1 mile first leg, and that's your chance of a good result gone.

By contrast passage racing where the start and 1st mile is not as important, and the fleet is likely to spread out a bit more then those slight losses are nothing like as important.

In our 1 design fleet, you’d be spot on. If you can’t keep your height, you are on a constant path to ruin, just in the st1t of more and more boats until you tack off and cross the rear of the fleet, having ducked everyone in ignominy. The stuff of nightmares. And it does indeed take less than 1% for that to happen. In a handicap fleet it’s not so bad, as the fleet gets spaced out quickly anyway.