Chris_d
Well-Known Member
It may well be tosh, I thought the same but it depends on who you ask I guess, did you read the other thread I linked to?
Andrew M phoned the MCA, this was their answer:
" I've spoken to the MCA, their advice was that if the boat's not coded (that's run out and I can't see me replacing it) and if the people on board are "friends and family" (there's a definite distinction between this and "passengers" who are fees paying people), and if I'm not using the boat for any commercial type of use (ie, not recovering more than fuel/running costs) then there is not an actual limit on guests on board subject to the fact that it is my responsibility as skipper to ensure the vessel is seaworthy and safe to use, that there is adequate safety equipment on board for all persons etc. "
JFM's post on the subject is very informative:
" I've only just seen this thread. You've touched on a very complex topic, and one I've had to think about carefully because I run an 80 foot private non charter boat that is CE plated for 20 people and can easily fit that many people for day cruising and I get plenty of requests from friends for >12 passengers.
Sorry this will be a long post - you need to blame the legislators for making this so complex
Excuse the bluntness, but a very large part of what is written above is just incorrect. Just as a couple of examples, the "12+2" is fantasy, and MGN 538 neither "definitive" nor "legislation" because it is not law. The reference to mgn280 is merely half of that story: if you want to code a boat you have a free choice in UK to code to mgn 280 or yellow book (and fwiw I cannot for life of me see why someone would choose the more awkward mgn280).
When seeking advice from MCA, RNLI and RYA, remember the second 2 are giving merely an opinion that you can't rely on. Even if you are asking the MCA remember (a) under Uk law advice from a public body such as MCA may not be relied upon unless you ask your question in a particular format (the legal precedent is MFK Underwriting and then the Matrix v CIR case) and (b) this topic is so complex it is unlikely a front line question answerer at MCA will even know the answer (but i'd be delighted to be proved wrong there)
The legal analysis goes like this:
1. Mgn538, which isn't law, says that in UK law a private vessel (by which I mean not commercial, under the SI 1998/2771 definition) carrying >12 passengers is a "passenger ship". The basis for that assertion is that SOLAS says it, and SOLAS is sort of adoipted into UK law in the various shipping acts. However, SOLAS doesn't actually say that in clear terms. Solas grants an exception to passenger ship status if the vessel is in private use, but then elsewhere it says >12pax = passenger, so SOLAS itself contains an internal inconsistency. STCW, also incorporated into UK law on a similar footing to SOLAS, doesnt contain that inconsistency: it is clear under STCW that if the use is private then the boat isn't a passenger ship even if >12 pax
2. So you start from a position that the law is defective. That aint unusual, btw
3. you could just leave it at that and run the boat not as a passenger ship, even if >12 private guests, and you'd likely be fine
4. But let's say we want to be cautious, so let's cautiously assume the SOLAS inconsistency ends up in a decision by MCA to treat the boat as a passenger ship. (Remember MCA is a prosecuting authority in its own right, like the CPS; it doesn't need the CPS). Then what?
5. Well now you're into more complex law. First, virtually all the rules for passenger ships don't apply in the cases applicable to this forum ie boats with <80GRT and not on international voyages. The rules get tougher the bigger and more offshore-ish and international you go. The MOST that could apply to "our sort of boating" as I read the law (and I repeat, it is complex) is that you must have just 2 certificates: a safety certificate and a safety management certificate. I think you would get those easily enough from a surveyor assuming you ran a good vessel. So that's your worst case scenario, and it aint too bad
6. But that is pretty conservative imho. A more balanced view is to say that the vessel must be "coded" under the applicable code, which isn't mgn280 or yellow book or any of the commercial codes but is the slightly obscure "Passenger Yacht Code", which has been adopted by the red ensign group ie by the UK. This code contains all sorts of rules about watertight bulkheads and stuff, but NONE of its rules apply to a boat built from GRP not in commercial use.
7. My conclusion therefore is that for purely private use you can have 12+ passengers on a GRP UK flagged vessel in coastal cruising and still be compliant with UK law, subject to #8 and #9 below. I'm therefore disagreeing with you that there is a meaningful change in status once you exceed 12 pax
8. All of the above is subject to the general legal and tortious duties of seaworthiness, adequate safety equipment, not overloading, etc (NOT, in law, a nameless "duty of care" as people keep writing time and time agian, misunderstanding the meaning of that phrase in UK law). Those are all things you must apply your own judgment to but it's not hard and my personal view is you should (a) not exceed the CE plate number, (b) have enough LJs and lifeboats for those on board, and (c) generally keep the boat in decent nick and navigate it sensibly. In my own case I have enough LJs (20+) and I consider that the total plated capacity of the LRs and the tender (8+8+7 in my case) to be the relevant lifeboat number, for ordinary coastal day cruising with chums.
9. All of the above is ALSO subject to the UK regulations (ie, law) which are similar to what I write in 8 above except that on >13.7 <24m boats you must have LRs for everyone (ie not rely on the tender) if >3miles from the coast. Therefore when I have >16 folks (incl crew) on my boat I stay <3 miles from coast, but that is fine for day trips and local easy peazy cruising
I'd be interested to hear what MCA, RNLI and RYA actually say about this complex topic. I think you should have spiced up your question to specifically draw their attention to mgn538 where it says >12 = passenger ship even if no payment, just to make them work a bit harder
. "
(Not with a 5mph limit sadly)
