How many on a boat?

[capnfishy]

But aren't all the offences stipulated in connection with the EA's powers under the Thames Conservancy Act for regulation, management and improvement of the Thames navigation BYELAW OFFENCES?

Offences under the EA IWO 2010 are for failure to register, failure to insure, failure to provide information and non-compliance with construction standards only.

Are you really saying publicly that the EA has given up (or cannot be bothered) with enforcement of all the regulations made to ensure safety, good order and sound management of the Thames because "the focus is elsewhere"?

Is that enforcement focus then only on the aspects of management that produce revenue rather than the EA's general duty to ensure "governance and good order of persons navigating the Thames"?

No, the EA has not given up, you said that. Enforcement is a targeted activity that focuses mainly on registration given that is the primary source of income that can be influenced and, historically, generated the most complaints. The rest is ad hoc as and when it occurs if spotted. For example, fishing from lock laybys or in lock cuts is not permitted but rarely are the anglers challenged as most staff will be working solo. Playing music in a lock chamber is prohibited and experienced staff will request it be turned off unless there is a risk of conflict due to intoxication. Neither of these byelaw offences would be pursued via a court as the cost involved is not in the public interest. The EA has to rely on boaters adhering to the rules voluntarily. If you want greater regulation the EA will need a lot more staff for which you will have to pay through your licence.

River regulation enforcement is just like traffic enforcement on the roads, there are too few on duty to provide comprehensive cover. Bye law enforcement is low priority compared with primary legislation offences such as those under IWO.

 

[thamesS23]

just make sure that you buy the boat that suits your needs, and not your friends, relatives, hangers on etc.

When we were looking at buying our first boat, I was a bit like you and thinking about all the people I could have on board, but in the end, bought the one that was best for me and the wife. That was about 8 years ago, and still have the same boat and still enjoying it as much, if not more then ever.

 

[djm]

No, the EA has not given up, you said that. Enforcement is a targeted activity that focuses mainly on registration given that is the primary source of income that can be influenced and, historically, generated the most complaints. The rest is ad hoc as and when it occurs if spotted. For example, fishing from lock laybys or in lock cuts is not permitted but rarely are the anglers challenged as most staff will be working solo. Playing music in a lock chamber is prohibited and experienced staff will request it be turned off unless there is a risk of conflict due to intoxication. Neither of these byelaw offences would be pursued via a court as the cost involved is not in the public interest. The EA has to rely on boaters adhering to the rules voluntarily. If you want greater regulation the EA will need a lot more staff for which you will have to pay through your licence.

River regulation enforcement is just like traffic enforcement on the roads, there are too few on duty to provide comprehensive cover. Bye law enforcement is low priority compared with primary legislation offences such as those under IWO.

Thank you, Cap'n.

In fact I did not say that the EA had "given up". I asked if they had. Sadly, your reply does little to allay my fears.

Your first statement that the TCA byelaw offence of overloading a boat was "not a concern for the EA" compounded by the fact that you then appeared unaware even of the existence of such a byelaw and then your extraordinary public pronouncement that enforcement of the TCA byelaws is"virtually impossible" does make my question entirely plausible.

As to your claim that the "EA has to rely on boaters adhering to the rules voluntarily", most are more than happy to do so. I believe that licence-paying boaters also have a right to expect that the EA will at least make a reasonable attempt to sanction those who don't abide by the rules made for safe enjoyment of the river by all.

And just for the record, since when was the Environment Agency (Inland Waterways) Order 2010 Primary Legislation?

 

[Medskipper]

Hello again all, I've read different conflicting information and thought I'd confuse matters more by asking the question...

On a boat like a Searay 240, Bayliner 2755 and boats of similar types, how many people could you carry onboard to go along the Thames entertaining for the day?

I'm looking at 24-27ft boats but don't want to be in a position where I can't take everyone out for the day (8-12people)

How many have you carried comfortably and on what boat?

Thanks

I think you need at least a thirty footer.
dont forget there is a very strict speed limit on the upper reaches of the Thames above Teddington lock, so do you really need a sports boat capable of 20+ knots? If I were you I'd go for a nice comfortable cruiser 30-35'

 

[D12ty]

I think you need at least a thirty footer.
dont forget there is a very strict speed limit on the upper reaches of the Thames above Teddington lock, so do you really need a sports boat capable of 20+ knots? If I were you I'd go for a nice comfortable cruiser 30-35'

I was reluctant and steered away from a big v8 mercruiser but keept gettingdrawn back to the style of the sports cruisers and of course the price range in which they sit.
I think i may need to view a few comfortable cruisers as youve mentioned above, its the dated interiors which put me off but like anythig im sure there are ways of modernising vessels to bring them up to date atleast by 10 years lol

 

[capnfishy]

Thank you, Cap'n.

In fact I did not say that the EA had "given up". I asked if they had. Sadly, your reply does little to allay my fears.

Your first statement that the TCA byelaw offence of overloading a boat was "not a concern for the EA" compounded by the fact that you then appeared unaware even of the existence of such a byelaw and then your extraordinary public pronouncement that enforcement of the TCA byelaws is"virtually impossible" does make my question entirely plausible.

As to your claim that the "EA has to rely on boaters adhering to the rules voluntarily", most are more than happy to do so. I believe that licence-paying boaters also have a right to expect that the EA will at least make a reasonable attempt to sanction those who don't abide by the rules made for safe enjoyment of the river by all.

And just for the record, since when was the Environment Agency (Inland Waterways) Order 2010 Primary Legislation?

The EA has not given up. It concentrates on what it believes to be the main areas of concern, registration plus speed and wash, hence the occasional prosecution. The byelaws are difficult to enforce owing to the petty nature of many of them which by modern standards are not necessarily relevant and I suggest that many boaters are unaware of them. Copies of the byelaws are available free from most lock offices. Overloading, although dangerous, is a minor indiscretion so most boaters get away with it and for the record, I do know about the byelaws.

The IWO was introduced via a statutory instrument that permits the variation of primary legislation without the need to pass a new act of parliament so is subordinate to the primary act.

 

[oldgit]

A truth that must be whispered....................

Many of us in our first faltering steps apon the water are actually buying some illusion,this nearly always results in the purchase of some totally impractical boat which always seems to best represent the dream,despite all the well intentioned sage advice from those of us who have been down that road.....several times before .
A wobbly ill handling sports boat powered by well who cares really is the sentence handed down.
By the second or third mistake most of us realise that the boat we want is not the boat we need.
The sheer number of people who warned me against buying an old boat with
Petrol engines
Outdrives
bolted on to any ..."sports" ....type boat
Did I listen...Hell no.
Spent a small( large actually) fortune while spending a lot of time ashore due to ignoring good advice.
Finally bought a diesel on shafts,now we just go boating.

 

[Medskipper]

I was reluctant and steered away from a big v8 mercruiser but keept gettingdrawn back to the style of the sports cruisers and of course the price range in which they sit.
I think i may need to view a few comfortable cruisers as youve mentioned above, its the dated interiors which put me off but like anythig im sure there are ways of modernising vessels to bring them up to date atleast by 10 years lol

Have a look at a Fairline Mirage, very roomy comfortable cruiser, quite sort of sporty, easily modernised. You don't say what you want to spend? but there are many example with various engine options so you may find one you like at your price range? I'm sure it will carry a good few people.
good Luck.

 

[djm]

The EA has not given up. It concentrates on what it believes to be the main areas of concern, registration plus speed and wash, hence the occasional prosecution. The byelaws are difficult to enforce owing to the petty nature of many of them which by modern standards are not necessarily relevant and I suggest that many boaters are unaware of them. Copies of the byelaws are available free from most lock offices. Overloading, although dangerous, is a minor indiscretion so most boaters get away with it and for the record, I do know about the byelaws.

The IWO was introduced via a statutory instrument that permits the variation of primary legislation without the need to pass a new act of parliament so is subordinate to the primary act.

So, given that your claimed inability to enforce the TCA byelaws is a matter of choice through practical and financial expediency, would you now like to carefully reconsider your previous statements?:

a) "that overloading is not a TCA offence".
and b) "is therefore not a concern for the EA".

and particularly - "overloading, though dangerous, is a minor indiscretion".

I wonder if the MCA might have anything to say about that last little gem if I bring it to their attention.

 

[capnfishy]

No, I'm maintaining my position. The byelaws become very relevant when there is a major error on the part of a skipper so if say there was a fatality then it would be considered. However, there might be other legislation that secures a better result for the prosecution on conviction.

And to be crystal clear, I speak for me as a pragmatist, not the EA.

 

[Pump-Out]

No, I'm maintaining my position. The byelaws become very relevant when there is a major error on the part of a skipper so if say there was a fatality then it would be considered. However, there might be other legislation that secures a better result for the prosecution on conviction.

I am shocked. I don't normally join in conversations of this type, but I am shocked.

Any vessel carrying more than 12 passengers is a commercial vessel, that is set by IMO. A thirtieth passenger is an offence under all sorts of legislation. If an accident were to occur, with an overloaded vessels on EA waters I suspect that your posts here would not be seen in the best light.

a) A report should be made to the MCA, if the EA really don't have the capacity to deal themselves.
b) If chasing funds is a priority then you are seeing yourselves off - carrying more than 12 people puts the vessel in a higher charging class, so an overloaded cruiser is not paying an appropriate Registration Fee.
c) Overloading would invalidate insurance, so your insistence on seeing insurance documents would also be pointless.

I think the professional operators on the Thames would be somewhat miffed to read your posts, they pay good money, too many agencies, to carry more than twelve passengers.
PO

 

[No Regrets]

I was reluctant and steered away from a big v8 mercruiser but keept gettingdrawn back to the style of the sports cruisers and of course the price range in which they sit.
I think i may need to view a few comfortable cruisers as youve mentioned above, its the dated interiors which put me off but like anythig im sure there are ways of modernising vessels to bring them up to date atleast by 10 years lol

I did that. Worst £30k I ever spent, sold it after 8 months (This was a mint 2 year old boat) and replaced it with one of those cruisers with a dated interior. I never looked back...

The problem is, you're getting exactly the right advice from everybody here so far, yet you seem reluctant, and I guess why.

Why? Well like everyone buy his first boat, you want the 'James Bond' appeal which sport cruisers have, and then some friends to cockwave to on selected weekends as you punt up and down between locks with a few glasses of Wine and your sunglasses on at the helm.

We all did it...

Trouble is, you'll get bored doing that, very quickly, then you'll want a proper boat.

Buy the proper boat now, save the trouble of trying to flog a Bayliner after your first season... :encouragement:

 

[Chris_d]

I am shocked. I don't normally join in conversations of this type, but I am shocked.

Any vessel carrying more than 12 passengers is a commercial vessel, that is set by IMO. A thirtieth passenger is an offence under all sorts of legislation. If an accident were to occur, with an overloaded vessels on EA waters I suspect that your posts here would not be seen in the best light.

a) A report should be made to the MCA, if the EA really don't have the capacity to deal themselves.
b) If chasing funds is a priority then you are seeing yourselves off - carrying more than 12 people puts the vessel in a higher charging class, so an overloaded cruiser is not paying an appropriate Registration Fee.
c) Overloading would invalidate insurance, so your insistence on seeing insurance documents would also be pointless.

I think the professional operators on the Thames would be somewhat miffed to read your posts, they pay good money, too many agencies, to carry more than twelve passengers.
PO

I think you will find the 12 persons has no basis in law at all its just a local byelaw, have a read of this thread.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...of-people-on-board&highlight=number+of+people

 

[D12ty]

I did that. Worst £30k I ever spent, sold it after 8 months (This was a mint 2 year old boat) and replaced it with one of those cruisers with a dated interior. I never looked back...

The problem is, you're getting exactly the right advice from everybody here so far, yet you seem reluctant, and I guess why.

Why? Well like everyone buy his first boat, you want the 'James Bond' appeal which sport cruisers have, and then some friends to cockwave to on selected weekends as you punt up and down between locks with a few glasses of Wine and your sunglasses on at the helm.

We all did it...

Trouble is, you'll get bored doing that, very quickly, then you'll want a proper boat.

Buy the proper boat now, save the trouble of trying to flog a Bayliner after your first season... :encouragement:

I intend to take the advice, hence why I said I will be looking at cruisers...

James Bond, hmm not really

I done some more digging last night, looked at a the Fairline Mirage which does look (pictures) like a nice sized boat with potential. Although they sit above where I think my evermoving budget will allow!

I have been searching on apollo/boats and outboards/ on the for sale here of course

Any other sites worth checking out? Any other boat suggestions around the £15k mark?

 

[Chris_d]

I intend to take the advice, hence why I said I will be looking at cruisers...

James Bond, hmm not really

I done some more digging last night, looked at a the Fairline Mirage which does look (pictures) like a nice sized boat with potential. Although they sit above where I think my evermoving budget will allow!

I have been searching on apollo/boats and outboards/ on the for sale here of course

Any other sites worth checking out? Any other boat suggestions around the £15k mark?

Well going against my own advice, for the maximum boat for your money how about a Princess 32 with diesels, don't get twin petrols whatever you do, avoid the Volvo 106hp diesel versions. Loads in that price range however they have the dreaded old outdrives so you need to be good at fixing stuff, in fact you need to be good at fixing stuff with any boat. If your not good at fixing stuff, buy something newer (<10yrs) with an outboard maybe or find some more money Unfortunately 15K is old banger territory for boats.

http://www.boatshop24.co.uk/boats-for-sale/princess/princess-32

 

[D12ty]

Fortunately I have a good few years of engineering behind me, none of it being marine but skills which could be adapted I think.
The budget needs to stay the same at the moment so the compromise is going for an older boat as you've suggested and getting the best bang for buck! I'm going to fire up my laptop now and have a look at the princess 32, would be nice to have something to work on over the winter to have ready for boating season next year!

 

[D12ty]

Also another question (appreciating the feedback here as it's helping a lot so thank you all)

Depreciation? Do the older boats depreciate or tend to hold value? I know money is lost through maintenance and repair but that's like anything.

 

[Chris_d]

Also another question (appreciating the feedback here as it's helping a lot so thank you all)

Depreciation? Do the older boats depreciate or tend to hold value? I know money is lost through maintenance and repair but that's like anything.

No not like cars, most of the depreciating is done in the first 5 years or so then they are fairly flat. Using the Princess 32 as an example 10 years ago you could buy a really good one for 20-25K, maybe that's 15-20k now, so yes worth less in real terms but we have had a massive recession recently which has hammered boat values. Basically after a year or two though you should get back what you paid as long as you buy wisely. I have had my current boat for 10 years so right through the worse recession but its still worth more about 75% of what I paid, but before that I had never sold a boat for less than I paid for it.

 

[CX54WEK]

Re: A truth that must be whispered....................

Many of us in our first faltering steps apon the water are actually buying some illusion,this nearly always results in the purchase of some totally impractical boat which always seems to best represent the dream,despite all the well intentioned sage advice from those of us who have been down that road.....several times before .
A wobbly ill handling sports boat powered by well who cares really is the sentence handed down.
By the second or third mistake most of us realise that the boat we want is not the boat we need.
The sheer number of people who warned me against buying an old boat with
Petrol engines
Outdrives
bolted on to any ..."sports" ....type boat
Did I listen...Hell no.
Spent a small( large actually) fortune while spending a lot of time ashore due to ignoring good advice.
Finally bought a diesel on shafts,now we just go boating.

Thankfully this process is not always the case.

Some of us manage to buy the "right" boat for us on the first attempt and have many happy years of boating, travelling many thousands of miles all without our stern drives dropping off or exploding.

 

[Chris_d]

Re: A truth that must be whispered....................

Thankfully this process is not always the case.

Some of us manage to buy the "right" boat for us on the first attempt and have many happy years of boating, travelling many thousands of miles all without our stern drives dropping off or exploding.

Yes I think NR was new to boating and bought some Spanish made pile of poo rather than a proper boat