Kukri
Well-Known Member
Yes, they certainly do. They existed when all you could do was to lash the tiller.
How important is it to have a chart plotter at the wheel pedestal?
- Thread starter Kukri
- Start date
Yes, they certainly do. They existed when all you could do was to lash the tiller.
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
I don’t know about plotter.
Sperry intergrated system will do exactly as you describe in if in both track mode and silent mode.
prv
Well-Known Member
I have a recent Raymarine plotter and pilot and as far as I know there is still no way to have it automatically turn at the corners of a route. It will beep, tell you what turn it proposes to make, and you have to agree that it can.
I am perfectly happy with this arrangement. As already mentioned, if I'm sailing I don't want it to tack or gybe without warning, or even just luff up or bear away significantly, especially if it's breezy. And even under power, there's some chance that another vessel might be nearby, especially since corners on a pre-planned route have a higher-than-average chance of being near a headland, buoy, or other feature that other people may also be rounding.
One restriction they have removed is that you didn't used to be able to control the autopilot from a mirrored view of the plotter on an iPad. Their reasoning was that the skipper might not know that someone on board, perhaps a teenager messing about in their cabin, or a clueless guest, was about to unexpectedly take control of the boat. However, they have removed this restriction and you can now monitor the radar and steer the boat from the saloon table if you wish to.
Pete
Refueler
Well-Known Member
We know there have been developments ... the Soviets many years ago sent a ship across the Black Sea under auto control ... military has autonomous air and surface vehicles ... even in the RC hobby .. as example my pal Vilnis sets up his table and gear ... plugs in batterys ... calls up the flight pattern he programmed at home ... literally presses button .... the 2.5m span model takes off and sets off into its flight .... before restrictions were imposed - he'd already made a number of round trips of over 45kms from base and a total flight distance of over 100kms ... completely hands free ... even down to landing back at the base point.
My DJI can relay back to me video from autonomous flight at over 5km distance ...
JohnGC
Well-Known Member
USB C is a big step-up from the all of the type B connectors. It is capable of 5A at 20V. It can do that while handing HDMI and USB 3 amongst other things. Modern laptop docking stations have just 1 USB C connector for power, HDMI, USB etc. There are 24 connections in a USB C link, some are just mirrors to allow the plug to be reversed , some have fixed functions and the functions of others can be negotiated. Some cables include active electronics. USB C is backwards compatible with older USB devices (without the additional functions of course).
USB C chargers and loads "negotiate" the supply and demand.
The extent to which the power negotiation is enabled between the charger and device and the devices capabilities is more likely to be a limiting factor.
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Naughty thought but the un-user-friendliness of Sperry autopilots played a role in the groundings of both the Torrey Canyon and the Exxon Valdez.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Dunno about Sperry .... but I know the USCG having delayed the installation of the extended radar coverage of the bay had a hand in Exxon Valdez .... the channel was iced up and she strayed outside ...
If the planned upgrade had been made at correct time - she would have been plotted and likely been warned by CG operator.
Also contrary to news media at the time - Master was NOT drunk ... far from it in fact ...
As for Torrey Canyon ... in her day ... Speery system most likely would have been the lever at side of helm pedestal and then turn knob on the gyro compass at helm ...
Trying to think how it could have contributed ... they were purely auto pilot systems that had little weather correction to them ... unlike later systems.
Kukri
Well-Known Member
The common element was that it was possible to be unaware of whether the autopilot was engaged or not.
I agree that Joe Hazelwood was not drunk. He was given a job by Mike Chalos, a friend of a friend, because no-one would employ him.
I agree that Joe Hazelwood was not drunk. He was given a job by Mike Chalos, a friend of a friend, because no-one would employ him.
Last edited:
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
I doubt the suggestion the auto pilot was the cause, Very possibly a contributing factor. Particularly in the extremis, when the realization its all gone pear shaped hits. The confusion is often around changing from auto pilot to hand steering. Or failure to change with auto pilot limited in the amount of helm applied.
long time since I read the story, if memory serves.
Hazelwood had been drinking, prior to departure, this lead to the presumption he was drunk. If I remember correct he wasn’t actually tested.
Hazelwood was called by the 3rd officer and informed of the presences of ice, Hazelwood did not get up and go to the bridge. He just replied go round the ice.
The 3rd officer went round the ice, without bothering to check the position, or the chart , and went up,on Bligh reef.
There might have been
A last minute screw up over the hand steering and auto pilot. The QM not being familiar with how to change.
i can’t remember.
The first USCG officer to arrive on scene, believed Hazelwood, had been drinking.
Everything focused on the Captain being drunk, he probably was, even so I personally believe it played little actual role in the grounding.
The Capt. was called. For what most mariners would consider a very good reason. The ship was encountering a significant hazard, Ice across the channel, Drunk or Sober the Capt. Should have showed up.
Might as well have had a cardboard cutout of Capt Birdseye on board.
The 3rd officer, went out of his way to appear incompetent. Yet he was quite an experienced officer.
I called a few. Dressing gown and slippers, sober or not. They all turned up.
long time since I read the story, if memory serves.
Hazelwood had been drinking, prior to departure, this lead to the presumption he was drunk. If I remember correct he wasn’t actually tested.
Hazelwood was called by the 3rd officer and informed of the presences of ice, Hazelwood did not get up and go to the bridge. He just replied go round the ice.
The 3rd officer went round the ice, without bothering to check the position, or the chart , and went up,on Bligh reef.
There might have been
A last minute screw up over the hand steering and auto pilot. The QM not being familiar with how to change.
i can’t remember.
The first USCG officer to arrive on scene, believed Hazelwood, had been drinking.
Everything focused on the Captain being drunk, he probably was, even so I personally believe it played little actual role in the grounding.
The Capt. was called. For what most mariners would consider a very good reason. The ship was encountering a significant hazard, Ice across the channel, Drunk or Sober the Capt. Should have showed up.
Might as well have had a cardboard cutout of Capt Birdseye on board.
The 3rd officer, went out of his way to appear incompetent. Yet he was quite an experienced officer.
I called a few. Dressing gown and slippers, sober or not. They all turned up.
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Thank you. Good summary. Hazelwood had been up the road with the Agent. Not the first or the last Old Man to do that.
That was exactly what I meant about the autopilot.
I got the bit about the autopilot from David Hebden who as Exxon’s UK admiralty solicitor was asked to investigate and make a report to their Board.
That was exactly what I meant about the autopilot.
I got the bit about the autopilot from David Hebden who as Exxon’s UK admiralty solicitor was asked to investigate and make a report to their Board.
Last edited:
Refueler
Well-Known Member
The problem with Valdez report - is the USCG were found to be 'not overly' forthcoming in their evidence trying to steer away from their failure to install the required radar coverage .. that had been highlighted for years ... not only that - but the bay itself was poorly surveyed.
The claim about Master being drunk was as I recall based on ONE empty can ...
As to Master going to the bridge ... I met with one who was involved in the incident ... and his recall was vastly different to the reports version ....
It is also relevant that Exxon since the court case later had the verdict downgraded along with the Master and OOW.... based on evidence that was withheld originally.
Sadly the Valdez was only one of ships that 'cover-ups' were written ..... involving USCG ....
Check out the Texaco Oklahoma ....... as example.
I apologise to many here - but I feel particularly bitter about the Valdez because it changed so much of our way of life on board. The false accusations upheld by the court led to removal of privileges and the instigation of testing that in some ways led to break down of trust.
The claim about Master being drunk was as I recall based on ONE empty can ...
As to Master going to the bridge ... I met with one who was involved in the incident ... and his recall was vastly different to the reports version ....
It is also relevant that Exxon since the court case later had the verdict downgraded along with the Master and OOW.... based on evidence that was withheld originally.
Sadly the Valdez was only one of ships that 'cover-ups' were written ..... involving USCG ....
Check out the Texaco Oklahoma ....... as example.
I apologise to many here - but I feel particularly bitter about the Valdez because it changed so much of our way of life on board. The false accusations upheld by the court led to removal of privileges and the instigation of testing that in some ways led to break down of trust.
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
Graham376
Well-Known Member
Oh they do exist as we found one night under sail on passage from Camaret to Mounts Bay. Saw something approaching fast on radar on starboard side and eventually saw a red and white, estimated it would pass ahead by about 1/4 - 1/2 mile. Suddenly saw red + green and he was heading directly at us despite me having already lit the sails up with powerful lamp. I immediately turned and he passed exactly where he would have gone straight through us. Lit him up and it was a Sunseeker type boat with lots of lights on down below and no-one visible.
Frank Holden
Well-Known Member
My last day job, 20,000grt, 20 knots, was built in 1999.... had a Kongsberg bridge outfit..... having left the berth you could press the 'take me to Tasmania' button and that was that.... I retired 14 years ago and not sure whether we had to 'accept' course changes or not.... in practice we could not use it in Port Phillip Heads as one minute you could have up to an 8 knot ebb on the port beam and the the next minute 8 knots on the stbd beam... system was simply unable to cope with such rapid change. Apart from that worked like a charm...
In track mode it was constantly making small alterations of heading to keep her on track... with no need for any human acceptance.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Track Mode ..... like I say - I haven't seen any ship yet with linked plotter to helm to maintain a track ..... I still only see Course Mode where you set the course and it steers it.
I have to admit that I myself rarely go on a ship now as I have Superintendents employed to do it ...
Graham376
Well-Known Member
Why is that? It seems odd that we leisure sailors can steer a track within 0.01nm cross track error and ships can't.
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
It may seam strange.
Back in the day, a trip to the boat show, I would see all sorts of electronic equipment, I had not seen on ships I sailed on. Some had very up to date equipment. Some just had the basic minimum requirement.
A lot depended on when and where the ship was built.
At one time, long, long ago I used to amuse myself,
When called by a yacht on vhf, I would start the conversation by asking if they had a Sat Nav. (Before they asked me).
If they said yes, I would ask them for a position.
I often wondered how many would later tell tales about having to give a position to a British Tanker when they got to the yacht club in Antigua, Bermuda or the Solent.
Never saw one. On smaller tankers or Bulkers until the US Law required it.
Today some vessels have fully integrated bridges, Some have everything stand alone. Some are paperless some traditional.
I went to my boat local boat show, I’m interested in sailing, even so I had a poke round a nice new Princess and a few other big power boats.
All the latest equipment, fly by wire, according to the sales chap. Easy to use with a joy stick. It will go where you want.
didn’t get into the details. So don’t know if it requires acknowledgment or not for alterations.
If you can pay for it, I would presume you can get it set up which ever way you want.
Back in the day, a trip to the boat show, I would see all sorts of electronic equipment, I had not seen on ships I sailed on. Some had very up to date equipment. Some just had the basic minimum requirement.
A lot depended on when and where the ship was built.
At one time, long, long ago I used to amuse myself,
When called by a yacht on vhf, I would start the conversation by asking if they had a Sat Nav. (Before they asked me).
If they said yes, I would ask them for a position.
I often wondered how many would later tell tales about having to give a position to a British Tanker when they got to the yacht club in Antigua, Bermuda or the Solent.
Never saw one. On smaller tankers or Bulkers until the US Law required it.
Today some vessels have fully integrated bridges, Some have everything stand alone. Some are paperless some traditional.
I went to my boat local boat show, I’m interested in sailing, even so I had a poke round a nice new Princess and a few other big power boats.
All the latest equipment, fly by wire, according to the sales chap. Easy to use with a joy stick. It will go where you want.
didn’t get into the details. So don’t know if it requires acknowledgment or not for alterations.
If you can pay for it, I would presume you can get it set up which ever way you want.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
I met a bloke I knew slightly through a previous career who was working for a major supplier of marine electronics for leisure vessels, up to Superyachts at an Exell LIBS.
As we were in the market for a plotter and Radar I asked his advice on the new technology fast becoming available.
He took me to a large soon to be on the market touch screen plotter, set it to show Poole Harbour to the Mid Solent and ran his finger over the screen leaving a trace on the displayed chart.
" You and I both know, cos we've done it lots, that track will get us out of Poole Harbour and opposite Lymington or Yarmouth so we can fetch whichever one we fancy. "
I looked closely, he had avoided shallow bits, the Shingles and Hurst Spit and the Trap. I agreed with him.
He followed with " The big motorboat companies work closely with us. They are selling to some who want to use a boat as they use a car. They have encouraged us to develop stuff like this that can be linked to the autopilot. By pressing a button the vessel will follow my course on the screen. "
" Really " I said " What about watchkeeping, SOLAS, poor visibility and other fairly normal hazards when on the water? "
" And thats the rub " he replied. " Can you imagine the $H1t that might happen if half these big powerboats were using something like that. They will have self driving cars before too long, but they can manouver and stop a bit better than a 50 foot Sunseeker! "
I had to agree.
I am not trying to be controversial, or to demean the seamanship of Motorboat owners, but he did have a very valid point.
Some of the youtube films posted from the USA show some appalling situations...................
As we were in the market for a plotter and Radar I asked his advice on the new technology fast becoming available.
He took me to a large soon to be on the market touch screen plotter, set it to show Poole Harbour to the Mid Solent and ran his finger over the screen leaving a trace on the displayed chart.
" You and I both know, cos we've done it lots, that track will get us out of Poole Harbour and opposite Lymington or Yarmouth so we can fetch whichever one we fancy. "
I looked closely, he had avoided shallow bits, the Shingles and Hurst Spit and the Trap. I agreed with him.
He followed with " The big motorboat companies work closely with us. They are selling to some who want to use a boat as they use a car. They have encouraged us to develop stuff like this that can be linked to the autopilot. By pressing a button the vessel will follow my course on the screen. "
" Really " I said " What about watchkeeping, SOLAS, poor visibility and other fairly normal hazards when on the water? "
" And thats the rub " he replied. " Can you imagine the $H1t that might happen if half these big powerboats were using something like that. They will have self driving cars before too long, but they can manouver and stop a bit better than a 50 foot Sunseeker! "
I had to agree.
I am not trying to be controversial, or to demean the seamanship of Motorboat owners, but he did have a very valid point.
Some of the youtube films posted from the USA show some appalling situations...................
Frank Holden
Well-Known Member
Something must be getting lost in translation here...
We didn't have 'plotters' ... we had ECDIS... as seen in the photo below.
It very much had 'track' mode... took some time initially setting it up... calculating 'wheel over ' points etc... but once done it would stick to the track like superglue.
When I bought my boat in 1994 it came with an 'Autohelm' ( later Raytheon then Raymarine ) GPS and autopilot with very early 'Seatalk' connecting the two.. This was pre plotter days... it had a 'track' mode... or in fact still has as I still have the original display at the chart table.
Quite primitive and positively 'user hostile'... I set it up once... 10 waypoints max... within about a cable or so of a waypoint it would require human intervention for an alter course. However it did keep you nailed to the track... so yes... you could either be in heading mode by just turning on the autopilot or 'track' mode by pressing the track button on this display.
That chart table display is the last remaining one of the displays and instruments that she came with but even now if you cycle through the screens... Lat ..Long.. COG and SOG... time... number of Sats... you get to the 'track' which all these years later is still telling me the course and distance to some point on the other side of the Pacific.... and offering to take me there...
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Hi Frank ... I used the term Plotters as a general term because we are on a Yachting forum.
Of course commercial shipping use ECDIS - which you know is a sophisticated form of Plotter.
As I say - myself and my guys - we attend all sorts of vessels in our work as Superintendents but usually we are not during passage making. But my overall interest in Navigation and what ships evolution - I like to see what they have compared to what I was used to and also to yachting. So far I haven't met a ship that has full course altering track mode. Yes - have looked at systems that course keep and do keep to a track that is current but none do course change without OOW intervention.
TBH - given some of the officers seen on ships today - it would be the last thing I would ever wish to see ...
Of course commercial shipping use ECDIS - which you know is a sophisticated form of Plotter.
As I say - myself and my guys - we attend all sorts of vessels in our work as Superintendents but usually we are not during passage making. But my overall interest in Navigation and what ships evolution - I like to see what they have compared to what I was used to and also to yachting. So far I haven't met a ship that has full course altering track mode. Yes - have looked at systems that course keep and do keep to a track that is current but none do course change without OOW intervention.
TBH - given some of the officers seen on ships today - it would be the last thing I would ever wish to see ...