How do I buy a battery driven (i.e. cordless for boat use) product that retains power for longer than a year or two?

[Kelpie]

... LiFe in both base and polymer versions ( LiFe / LiFePo) and non polymer LiIon ....
.

Is LiFePo distinct from LiFePo4?

My own tuppence worth on cordless tool batteries: my Makita set was bought back in 2015 and was used to build my house, so pretty heavy use. Still going strong. I mislaid one of the batteries and bought a cheap clone off eBay. It's a fraction of the weight and obviously lacks the clever electronics inside- you can discharge it right down until the tool slows and stops, which probably means it will be ruined before too much longer. I don't leave it on the charger since I assume it doesn't have overcharge protection.

At work we used Ryobi 18v stuff and it was not very well looked after- batteries run right down until they stopped, then not charged again for days. And unsurprisingly it didn't last. The larger batteries in particular were always dead within a month. Maybe Ryobi lasts better with more careful use but I would guess that it's not as robust as the more expensive makes.

 

[Refueler]

Is LiFePo distinct from LiFePo4?

In general terms - no.

The problem is that the Market has added abbreviated names for what are essentially same articles.

LiFePo4 is what you guys keep calling a LFP. It is a design of LiFePo battery that has a construction to increase safety. But its actual cell format is same.

Over last years - the range of Lithium battery construction / format has grown so much - that now we have not only different 'chemicals and separators' but also large voltage differences .....

What I posted earlier is just a small part of that world now ... and the common used.

 

[Refueler]

If it is necessary for a battery to be charged to 70%, then there should be a function allowing this as an option. Why should I want to sit for hours pehaps and watch the percentage, even on those few gadgets that display it? All I ask for is something like a green LED showing when 70% is reached, and a second one if I want to charge fully. Also, an amber one when it falls to 30% would be nice. A little diagramm of a battery with three bars tells me nothing.

First of all - disregard the 70% charge storage mark ..... sorry but that's fact. Storage of Lithium based batterys is best at 30 - 50%. Each % point above the 50% incurs accumulative cell damage in storage.

I agree that it would be nice to see the chargers have indicators / option to set storage level etc. But then the manufacturer will sell less batterys !! Call me cynic !

 

[Rappey]

For a dedicated boat cordless tool I would buy a used 12v and add a lead so it can be plugged in to the boats supply ,as already suggested.
The older ni-cad versions are easy to line up the two wires then push the battery in to clamp the wires.
Some lithiums power the on board chip from one of the cells. Leave the battery discharged and the one cell can drop below critical voltage so the charger won't charge as it sees it as a faulty battery. A few mins jump start from another battery brings it back up so it will charge again.
I get 24hr run time in site radio from a 4ah genuine and around 21/22 hrs from a far cheaper clone. Not bad since the clone is around 25% of the price

 

[Refueler]

For a dedicated boat cordless tool I would buy a used 12v and add a lead so it can be plugged in to the boats supply ,as already suggested.
The older ni-cad versions are easy to line up the two wires then push the battery in to clamp the wires.
Some lithiums power the on board chip from one of the cells. Leave the battery discharged and the one cell can drop below critical voltage so the charger won't charge as it sees it as a faulty battery. A few mins jump start from another battery brings it back up so it will charge again.
I get 24hr run time in site radio from a 4ah genuine and around 21/22 hrs from a far cheaper clone. Not bad since the clone is around 25% of the price

Please take care with using the battery to make the contacts ..... its far safer to disconnect the cells inside to avoid possible hazard from power being applied to bad cells ... you only want the power to the device itself.

I made bad mistake on a boat that had been broken into .. I fitted a battery powered entry alarm. The internal battery of course soon died and I returned to find boat 'unprotected'. So as a quick solution - I ran a 12v lead to the alarm unit using the battery as contactor.
Next day I returned to boat to find alarm a charred mess .... luckily it had disconnected itself during its demise and boat just had a black mark to remove.

Keep cells in the case though - to aid balance of the unit.

 

[Rappey]

Please take care with using the battery to make the contacts .....

Good advice. The difference here is that the tool is only plugged in when in use rather than left connected for long periods.
I ran an 18v grinder on 12v and it didn't appear to be any slower.
From googling seems 40% is the prefered storage percentage and cooler the better.

 

[Boathook]

I converted a cordless drill to 12v boat supply after the batteries failed. Under heavy load it kept blowing a 15 amp fuse. Gave up and purchased a new drill with 2 batteries.

 

[Refueler]

Good advice. The difference here is that the tool is only plugged in when in use rather than left connected for long periods.
I ran an 18v grinder on 12v and it didn't appear to be any slower.
From googling seems 40% is the prefered storage percentage and cooler the better.

Thank you ... I don't know where people get this 70% idea from ... but it really is not a good state to leave Li cells in.

 

[Refueler]

I converted a cordless drill to 12v boat supply after the batteries failed. Under heavy load it kept blowing a 15 amp fuse. Gave up and purchased a new drill with 2 batteries.

Why didn't you just croc clip direct to battery ??

Just a thought : 15 x 12 = 180W ..... not actually a fantastic value ... my Cheapo Chinese / Polish Topaz drill at 14.4V is rated at 200W ...... another I have with 7.4V is rated at 150W .... another 14.4V I have which is heavier is at 300W .....

 

[Rappey]

I don't know where people get this 70% idea from

We all read things online. The beauty of a forum is stating what has been read, or thought we read and then others suggesting what may be more accurate ,leading to others being presented with more informed information.

 

[davidpbo]

So with my Ebike battery which is 36V 11.6 Ah Lithium Ion, it looks as though I am best leaving it at 50% and charging to full just before I use it, is that correct?

I am happy to use it with less than 100% locally where I know likely consumption but not for a longer ride.

If when it looses capacity and I want to change the batteries to LiPo do I need to change the charger?

I left it fully charged (I think) before we went away for last month and it was at about 75% when we got back (Not on the bike).

I am tempted to organise a fire retardant charging cupboard, at present I either charge it on a marble work top or tile floor.

 

[Refueler]

So with my Ebike battery which is 36V 11.6 Ah Lithium Ion, it looks as though I am best leaving it at 50% and charging to full just before I use it, is that correct?

Problem here is Lithium Ion - which is a term that many use to cover many different cells. Not knowing the exact chemistry - its hard to answer - but as a general rule storing at 50% is good policy and a check every now and then for level.

I am happy to use it with less than 100% locally where I know likely consumption but not for a longer ride.

Good

If when it looses capacity and I want to change the batteries to LiPo do I need to change the charger?

Again similar answer - without knowing exact chemistry cannot answer. But I would assume that being quoted as 36V - then that indicates a LifePo4 .... or in full name : Lithium Iron Phosphate battery .... and are far more tolerant of being charged and left .... we wouldn't have replacements for Lead Acid if that was not case.
I would not think the cells are LiPo ..... you would have greater energy density and power delivery - but at significantly reduced high charge state storage. Therefore seeinbg the 36V tag - I would suggest they are LiFePo4.

I left it fully charged (I think) before we went away for last month and it was at about 75% when we got back (Not on the bike).

All Lithium cells have incredibly low Self Discharge rates .... and I would think you only had 75% at start .... in one month - it would hardly change.

I am tempted to organise a fire retardant charging cupboard, at present I either charge it on a marble work top or tile floor.

LiFePo4 - not needed as they are specifically designed to be safest form. Unless you are in habit of fast 5 minute full charges !! But that would heat them up ... short life etc.

 

[davidpbo]

I can only go by what is written on the battery block outer case it says Lithium-Ion. I will see if there is more information elsewhere on the web, it's a Carrera Crossfire 2 bike (Halfords own brand) so I doubt it will be a top of the range battery. I don't want to hijack the thread.

 

[ghostlymoron]

We have a pair of Gtech vacuum cleaners which we inherited from a late SIL nearly 3 years ago and she'd had them a few years. I think that they're Li ion powered and they are very effective and hold their charge for ages. I don't know if Gtech make other items.

They make lawn mowers but I doubt if they'd be much use on a boat.

 

[CFG98]

If it is necessary for a battery to be charged to 70%, then there should be a function allowing this as an option. Why should I want to sit for hours pehaps and watch the percentage, even on those few gadgets that display it? All I ask for is something like a green LED showing when 70% is reached, and a second one if I want to charge fully. Also, an amber one when it falls to 30% would be nice. A little diagramm of a battery with three bars tells me nothing.

There are apps for mobile phones and laptops at least that sound an alarm when the battery reaches a low level and a high level (determined by you).

 

[RIBW]

Thanks again to all - particularly Refueler.
I have learned a lot but, having surveyed my current battery tools and looked at the specs for possible replacement kit, I do not feel there is any guaranteed way to buy a longer lasting product just by reading the product literature (they all just mention 'Li-Ion').

I stripped my 18V vacuum (less than two years old and lasts <1min) to find 5x LGDAHD11865 cells and a small pcb connecting to some of the cells. I am guessing that LG is the manufacturer and that 1865 refers to the size in mm of a standard 18650 cell. Googling didn't help with the DAHD1 part.
Here my naivity kicks in - to satisfy my curiosity.

Option 1. Can I replace the current 5 cells with these "protected" cells
Olight 18650 3.6 V, 3400 mAh Li-ion Protected Battery
and achieve a long life
or
Option 2. Would it need the cells to be replaced with LiFePO4 (and a new charger circuit)?
Cheers
Bob

P.S. The description of the option 1 cell is:-
Low battery internal impedance
Up to 500 charge and discharge cycles
Maximum 4 A constant discharging current
Improved Battery Safety Free from Leakage of Liquid Electrolyte
Over discharge current protection, Over discharge voltage protection
Short circuit protection, Overcharge protection

 

[Refueler]

Hi RIBW ..... I would not swap to LiFePo .......

18650 cells are a good bet ...

The PCB - I assume connects to the 'outer' contacts so that it sees total voltage of the 5 cells ? This then would be likely to detect full and low charge state. Unlike other Lithium based cells - 18650 are quite tolerant of total charging and without balance function. Balance is where each cell is monitored by charger to ensure all cells reach same charge level and not overcharge / undercharge one or more in the pack.

Without more info - basically the unit in hand - whether protected or not - I cannot advise.

 

[RIBW]

Thanks Refueler,
Yes each cell is monitored. These wires are fed back into the body of the vacuum cleaner.
I did a quick test at full whack and the vacuum lasted 30s before cutting out. The cells dropped from 4.08V (fully charged) to 4.01 and were warm to the touch. I can't see any evidence of a temperature sensor so perhaps the electronic controller 'knows' the batteries well enough to stop any further discharge/self heating.
So, I agree; without more knowledge any remedial action could be futile.

The good thing is that my Bosch Li-ion tools (both green and blue variants) do seem to be holding up well compared.
Cheers
Bob

 

[Refueler]

OK ... many do not know that there are for general use 2 types of 18650 .... one that charges to 3.7V and another that charges to 4.2V. (There are others that are as low as 2.5V and various inbetween - but they are not usually found across shop counters).

Your cells charging to 4.08v and getting hot when used - they are past their useful life and cannot be ressurected. The charging to 4.1v is a common 'setting' of chargers for such items as its usually recc'd to stay around the 4.1v level for longer life ...

Measuring such cells when hot / not loaded - doesn't really tell much - but if you are seeing 4.01v and item is not functioning - then internal resistance of the cells is so high to cause vboltage drop enough in use to heat up and stop.

You can easily swap out the cells and replace with 4.2v rated 18650's ...... I would be using regular 18650's as you appear to have monitored cells anyway in the unit.

 

[RIBW]

Thanks Refueler,
Very interesting. Curiosity is going to get the better of me I think. I'll seek out some new cells and give it a go. (I need a project - I'm boatless until December!)
Cheers
Bob