ace_bridger
New Member
The Institute of Mechanical Engineers. The Institute of Electrical Engineers.
I think we're talking about different levels of accrediation here.
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- Thread starter Koeketiene
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The Institute of Mechanical Engineers. The Institute of Electrical Engineers.
I think we're talking about different levels of accrediation here.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
No idea, that comment was based on YM's article here:
http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news/530725/sailing-school-faces-court-hearing
Sailing school faces court hearing
Legal proceedings against both the skipper and the sailing school at the centre of the New Year storm rescue have been instigated by the MCA, it was revealed today.
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capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Indeed.
ace_bridger
New Member
The skipper and company are responsible for decisions made by the skipper. Fact.
My disappointment is with the RYA reaction. They're seperating themsleves from HL for their self protection. They should be working with their schools when things go wrong, not hanging them out to dry.
I agree, this is just Wiff Waff now so I'm out.
Out.
My disappointment is with the RYA reaction. They're seperating themsleves from HL for their self protection. They should be working with their schools when things go wrong, not hanging them out to dry.
I agree, this is just Wiff Waff now so I'm out.
Out.
alant
Well-Known Member
So, your the Principal of a Sailing School & have a freelance Skipper employed to take a boat out.
You know there is a dire weather forecast.
The Skipper is unlikely to turn up at the boat, without some handover + introduction/knowledge of crew. It is customary for all Skippers to have contact with the School just before any trip, they don't usually turn up & get the key's from under a door mat & set sail, unless totally conversant with that particular boat.
All the boats (including just charter) will have documentation on the boat, available for both Skipper & crew, regarding contacts/procedures/defects/etc.
You as Principal, will (should) be concerned that the trip is successful & that the boat specifically will turn up without mishap to it or anyone aboard.
Would you have a discussion with the Skipper & Crew (since these are 'your' customers)?
Of course you would!
That does not exonerate the Skipper of course, but as a responsible business, you are supposed to manage the situation before any lines are dropped & the Skipper takes over.
VO5
Well-Known Member
Isn't it pitiful to see what British Seafaring has been reduced to ?
Isn't it a disgrace ?
The MCA, which sets the syllabus, and therefore the standards to be followed, has been pruning it for years.
Then, when something like this happens, it appoints itself Judge, Jury and Executioner.
What is needed is the foundation of a proper British Sailing Academy under the aegis of the Government and no more of this cardboard cutout stuff.
alant
Well-Known Member
Like UKSA perhaps ( ex National Sailing Centre)
rotrax
Well-Known Member
You are replying to 'Ol toady-he appears to have a totaly different concept of the reality of this sad situation. HL have had three incidents in a fairly short timescale. They have been advised after one to tighten up management control. They apparently failed to do this, as another incident involving injury and RNLI rescue occurred. The matter was in the spotlight and the RYA took a look at the company that it had endorsed to carry out sail training under its banner and found it wanting. They removed their endorsment, as is their right. All the chatter about the value of RYA qualification is of little concern to me as I am happy with the training I have had from RYA endorsed Sailing Schools-including one which employed Jason Manning, the owner/principal of HL. My personal take on this is that the owner/principle of HL was in a position to veto or postpone the passage,or to insist on the vessel taking shelter. He apparently did not. His paid Skipper took the paying crew into hazzard- hazzard that most posters on this forum would not inflict upon their boat or crews if aviodable. HL is now paying the price for less than ideal management control. As I see it-end of.
Stork_III
Well-Known Member
Both bodies you quote style themselves INSTITUTION. Look it up. Ah! I am FTT.
Pete R
Well-Known Member
rotrax
Well-Known Member
Are you mixing up the RYA and MCA? Also please dont confuse what the RYA does with commercial training. The vast majority of RYA sailing courses are for Leisure sailors,who do not require any training or qualification in the UK anyway. I firmly believe out Leisure training is bang on the money.
VO5
Well-Known Member
Well, I don't agree. Leisure training needs to be beefed up.
As an example look at the silly circular arguments that develop here over crossing rules, overtaking rules, and power gives way to sail.
All these arguments are the result of poor training.
Correct training would eliminate all these nonsenses, among others.
RobbieW
Well-Known Member
Thank you for that - for this reader at least your post defines the roles within corporate responsibility clearly. Perhaps in the context of others posts but yours hits the nail on the head for me.
reginaldon
Well-Known Member
Life's not that simple! I don't think you appreciate the human condition.
Resolution
Well-Known Member
Still wiff waffing?
Well I've now cleared the drive of snow all the way down to the main road (we live in the country) and it is no surprise to see some of you forum goats bashing heads still. What is a surprise is that after some 300 posts some well reasoned and logical conclusions have been aired - well done to alant, rotrax and RobbieW.
Well I've now cleared the drive of snow all the way down to the main road (we live in the country) and it is no surprise to see some of you forum goats bashing heads still. What is a surprise is that after some 300 posts some well reasoned and logical conclusions have been aired - well done to alant, rotrax and RobbieW.
dt4134
Well-Known Member
Those mainly seem to arise because there is a majority on the forum who are self taught and many of them have come up with a convenient argument to avoid having to learn the col regs. It says nothing about the RYA.
VO5
Well-Known Member
I understand the human condition very well indeed.
It is because I do that I have the posture that I have.
Now, let's see....
The syllabus covers weather systems; anticyclones, cols, depressions, ridges, etc.,does it not ?
But nowadays the knowledge is stopped there, no further.
In my day we were taught the consequences of weather, and how to forecast properly.
Look at the chart of the English channel.
It is like a funnel with the neck at the Straits of Dover.
YOU DON'T SAIL ON AN EASTERLY HEADING INTO A FUNNEL WITH WORSENING WEATHER BEHIND YOU CAUSED BY AN ADVANCING DEPRESSION WHOSE TRACK IS EASTERLY.
IT IS NOT PRUDENT SEAMANSHIP.
You are going to meet howling winds and big seas the closer you get to the funnel coinciding with the advance of the depression behind you.
Conversely, if you found yourself in the Straits of Dover with an Easterly Gale brewing, you would have the mouth of the funnel to face, with deeper water and plenty of sea room is the difference.
This is what I mean by an extension of knowledge beyond learning about weather systems. Therefore the syllabus is limited. Knowing beyond the syllabus is not what most people care to think about. But it is of crucial importance.
This is because this extension of knowledge hinges on other aspects of seafaring whose ultimate object is prudent seamanship and not reckless impulsiveness.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The syllabus moves with the times. Ability to "guess" your own forecast based on the limited data available was needed simply because of the limitations of the data.
Nowadays there is more than enough accurate data available in weather forecasts not to need to construct your own. In the case being discussed here there is no suggestion that the skipper was unaware of the weather - knowing how to do his own forecast is irrelevant. The only issue is understanding the impact of the forecast on his passage plan - and it seems he made the wrong call.
There are many areas of knowledge learned by rote in the past that are now simply irrelevant - fine if you have that knowledge, but not necessary to skipper a yacht safely.
It is the job of the MCA and the RYA to develop the syllabus to reflect the level of knowledge required in relation to the resources available.
I had exactly the same arguments in my previous university life, trying to persuade some people that just because they had to learn things when they were at university 20 or 30 years ago did not mean it was essential for today's students to learn the same things. I just think of all the redundant skills and knowledge I learned that were relevant at the time, but have no practical application now. The challenge today is learning the new skills and taking advantage of the tools that are available now.
Kukri
Well-Known Member
I was self taught, meaning that as a boy back in the sixties I read the books, bought a boat and got on with it, including both sailing my own boat and crewing for people whom I thought I could learn from. I never had any difficulty boxing the compass and naming the reciprocals in 360, quadrantal and points notations; I learned those from Arthur Ransome's books as a little boy. I learned the colregs in the same way.
I very much agree with what VO5 posts above regarding weather predictions and sailing up Channel.
However I see the problem the other way round - there is a tendency to see RYA certificates as certificates of competency in the merchant ship sense, and I am not at all sure that that is what the RYA intends them to be seen as. They are certificates that you know a certain amount, but you would need a lot more sea time, a lot more reading and a lot more background knowledge than the amount prescribed to be "competent".
I recall that the RYA brought them in to head off demands for regulation.
I very much agree with what VO5 posts above regarding weather predictions and sailing up Channel.
However I see the problem the other way round - there is a tendency to see RYA certificates as certificates of competency in the merchant ship sense, and I am not at all sure that that is what the RYA intends them to be seen as. They are certificates that you know a certain amount, but you would need a lot more sea time, a lot more reading and a lot more background knowledge than the amount prescribed to be "competent".
I recall that the RYA brought them in to head off demands for regulation.
reginaldon
Well-Known Member
All perfectly true - I live in the funnel spout, but people will to & fro till the cows come home, either because they have too much time on their hands or they are plain cantankerous or again they conceive of some reason why the rubric should not be followed.