Hot Liquid: the response

[rotrax]

Well, I don't agree. Leisure training needs to be beefed up.
As an example look at the silly circular arguments that develop here over crossing rules, overtaking rules, and power gives way to sail.
All these arguments are the result of poor training.
Correct training would eliminate all these nonsenses, among others.

I know that during my RYA leisure training the points you mention were covered. There was no formal written exam or test at the end -they were practical courses-but I chose to read up and improve my knowledge of these areas after the course had ended. I dont appear to have any issues in those areas-so far anyway. If you "beef up" the training fewer will take advantage of it as it will be more onerous and will cost more. I have been a training instructor in industry and for motorsport. The course should have specific aims and the content should be at the right level for the trainees. Forget "all men are equal" its not true. Some have practical skills,some mental skills and some are a bit of both. To give five or six trainees a certain MINIMUM level of skill at the end of a week of training is a pretty difficult thing to achieve if the bar is set too high. As I said, RYA practical training has worked for me. My twenty plus years of vocational instructing in other areas tells me the RYA have it about right. In my opinion of course.........

 

[alant]

All perfectly true - I live in the funnel spout, but people will to & fro till the cows come home, either because they have too much time on their hands or they are plain cantankerous or again they conceive of some reason why the rubric should not be followed.

Its because the RYA weather syllabus, certainly at DS level, is a somewhat simplistic view. At CS/YM level, much more, but no time available on a 5 day/40hr course to do enough to make anyone a weatherman. Unless the instructor offers 'extra' perhaps anecdotal information, things like funneling/wind shear, may remain unknown.

Actual experience after YM, can quickly build on that base knowledge.

A good example I came across soon after getting my YM, was when taking a boat through the Bonifacio Straights, where the wind nice F4/F5 outside, can be F7/F8 in the straight. Not a situation for the unwary.

I however, think the Dover Sraights funneling distracts from the decision to sail without a suitable refuge port enroute. Anything can go wrong when sailing & they had few (if any) options available for the conditions forecast.

 

[sailorman]

Its because the RYA weather syllabus, certainly at DS level, is a somewhat simplistic view. At CS/YM level, much more, but no time available on a 5 day/40hr course to do enough to make anyone a weatherman. Unless the instructor offers 'extra' perhaps anecdotal information, things like funneling/wind shear, may remain unknown.

Actual experience after YM, can quickly build on that base knowledge.

A good example I came across soon after getting my YM, was when taking a boat through the Bonifacio Straights, where the wind nice F4/F5 outside, can be F7/F8 in the straight. Not a situation for the unwary.

I however, think the Dover Sraights funneling distracts from the decision to sail without a suitable refuge port enroute. Anything can go wrong when sailing & they had few (if any) options available for the conditions forecast.

Boulogne was the only Hbr with the option of entering under sail

 

[DaveS]

The Institute of Mechanical Engineers. The Institute of Electrical Engineers.

I think we're talking about different levels of accrediation here.

You're persistent, aren't you?

As has been pointed out elsewhere, the I in the title of both of these bodies stands for Institution not Institute. The IEE became the IET about 6 years ago. The original comment, if you can remember that far back, referred to Chartered Electrical Engineer. I am one, and to retain this status I pay an annual sub to the IET entitling me to the post nominals MIET and a sub to the Engineering Council to maintain my CEng registration.

 

[VO5]

The syllabus moves with the times. Ability to "guess" your own forecast based on the limited data available was needed simply because of the limitations of the data.

Nowadays there is more than enough accurate data available in weather forecasts not to need to construct your own. In the case being discussed here there is no suggestion that the skipper was unaware of the weather - knowing how to do his own forecast is irrelevant. The only issue is understanding the impact of the forecast on his passage plan - and it seems he made the wrong call.

There are many areas of knowledge learned by rote in the past that are now simply irrelevant - fine if you have that knowledge, but not necessary to skipper a yacht safely.

It is the job of the MCA and the RYA to develop the syllabus to reflect the level of knowledge required in relation to the resources available.

I had exactly the same arguments in my previous university life, trying to persuade some people that just because they had to learn things when they were at university 20 or 30 years ago did not mean it was essential for today's students to learn the same things. I just think of all the redundant skills and knowledge I learned that were relevant at the time, but have no practical application now. The challenge today is learning the new skills and taking advantage of the tools that are available now.

Yes, I agree. And do you know what, we end up with overqualified dunces.

The other day I was in my workshop working on a particularly tough peice of mahogany that was very difficult to cut a U groove using a rasp.

My neighbour's lad came by to look. He has a degree in mechanical engineering. I commented that "the amount and speed of the production of waste is directly proprtionate to the advancement of the work and hence the result". Blank look. I had to explain in detail this basic mechanical axiom.

Then we got talking about metal casting. Again, out of his depth.

Then we got talking about gears, engagement, depthing, uniform lead...
Again, blank looks.

No wonder nowadays we buy appliances of all sorts that don't function.

The parallel is identical to the problems I describe in previous threads.

The fault is not exactly the fault of the individual. The fault lies with what the individual has inculcated into him, because no one is born knowing. We all have to learn.

But what results is in direct proportion and quality of what exactly is inculcated and to what extent.

 

[sailorman]

Yes, I agree. And do you know what, we end up with overqualified dunces.

The other day I was in my workshop working on a particularly tough peice of mahogany that was very difficult to cut a U groove using a rasp.

My neighbour's lad came by to look. He has a degree in mechanical engineering. I commented that "the amount and speed of the production of waste is directly proprtionate to the advancement of the work and hence the result". Blank look. I had to explain in detail this basic mechanical axiom.

Then we got talking about metal casting. Again, out of his depth.

Then we got talking about gears, engagement, depthing, uniform lead...
Again, blank looks.

No wonder nowadays we buy appliances of all sorts that don't function.

The parallel is identical to the problems I describe in previous threads.

The fault is not exactly the fault of the individual. The fault lies with what the individual has inculcated into him, because no one is born knowing. We all have to learn.

But what results is in direct proportion and quality of what exactly is inculcated and to what extent.

A Rasp Eh

 

[Grumpybear]

The Institute of Mechanical Engineers. The Institute of Electrical Engineers.

I think we're talking about different levels of accrediation here.

Wrong again. I belong to the INSTITUTION of Mechanical Engineers.

 

[Koeketiene]

 

[rotrax]

I was self taught, meaning that as a boy back in the sixties I read the books, bought a boat and got on with it, including both sailing my own boat and crewing for people whom I thought I could learn from. I never had any difficulty boxing the compass and naming the reciprocals in 360, quadrantal and points notations; I learned those from Arthur Ransome's books as a little boy. I learned the colregs in the same way.

I very much agree with what VO5 posts above regarding weather predictions and sailing up Channel.

However I see the problem the other way round - there is a tendency to see RYA certificates as certificates of competency in the merchant ship sense, and I am not at all sure that that is what the RYA intends them to be seen as. They are certificates that you know a certain amount, but you would need a lot more sea time, a lot more reading and a lot more background knowledge than the amount prescribed to be "competent".

I recall that the RYA brought them in to head off demands for regulation.

Well said-RYA certificates are not very far reaching in the world of Commercial Shipping and as you point out they are not meant to be. You can buy almost any size boat in the UK and go to sea in it without any training, insurance or experience. Having the RYA cruising scheme with its increasing levels of training, classroom based and practical has staved off the threat of compulsory regulation and licencing. This must be a good thing. The number of training establishments, both power and sail shows there is a regular need for the services they offer.

 

[Koeketiene]

Having the RYA cruising scheme with its increasing levels of training, classroom based and practical has staved off the threat of compulsory regulation and licencing. This must be a good thing.

You hear this all the time, but why is this such a good thing?
There's compulsory licensing for driving a car, flying a plane, ... Why would this not be a good thing for boats?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

You hear this all the time, but why is this such a good thing?
There's compulsory licensing for driving a car, flying a plane, ... Why would this not be a good thing for boats?

Because it means change! Maintaining the status quo while expecting improvements is a very British thing.

 

[dt4134]

You hear this all the time, but why is this such a good thing?
There's compulsory licensing for driving a car, flying a plane, ... Why would this not be a good thing for boats?

What improvement would it make to justify the cost and bureaucracy? All the Hot Liquid incidents have had Yachtmaster Instructors as skippers.

A boat is more like the equivalent of a bicycle or hang glider compared to the full sized commercial stuff.

On the other hand, it might reduce the number of silly ColReg debates on the forum.

 

[rotrax]

You hear this all the time, but why is this such a good thing?
There's compulsory licensing for driving a car, flying a plane, ... Why would this not be a good thing for boats?

So that our esteemed Government would not charge great wodges of cash to pay for the management and bureocracy that would accompany licencing, let alone enforcement. In my opinion, of course.........

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

All the Hot Liquid incidents have had Yachtmaster Instructors as skippers.

A boat is more like the equivalent of a bicycle or hang glider compared to the full sized commercial stuff.

+1.

 

[Grumpybear]

So that our esteemed Government would not charge great wodges of cash to pay for the management and bureocracy that would accompany licencing, let alone enforcement. In my opinion, of course.........

Alas, our rulers are so inept that they would charge us great wedges of cash, still fail to cover the costs, consume yet more taxpayers' money and still find a way to award failing bureaucrats substantial performance bonuses.

 

[LinkSailor]

Try £85 per day!

Having taken many training courses with Hot Liquid, I agree with madmitch they were not perfect but were always very well staffed and very safety aware during all my training. Charlie is an excellent tutor with a vast experience and was always very aware of any safety issues, I think that there is a big lesson to be learnt in that 2 of the 3 incidents involving the Hot Liquid fleet were on trips to and from the boat show in London, and as such were subject to a tight timetable which left little room for diversions, not the way to plan any sailing trip.

 

[A1exander]

Some precedings

Once I took the course from Hot Liquid. I booked Yachtmaster prep. It was Summer 2010.

The first surprise I got just I stepped aboard (It was exactly that Bavaria “Liquid Fusion” that sank on Goodwin bank few month later): my Yachtmaster prep course (2 students) was unioned with Competent crew course (2 students) and Coastal skipper practical (1 student). Can you guess what that course looked like? Yes! We were sailing Solent and did some elementary things mixed up with some exam prep elements. So, I suppose that noone got anything from that week! And I can’t blame instruction – he was doing his best in that inconsistent situation.

The 2nd surprise I got on 4th day when diesel refused to start. So we spent half day to try to recover it and other part of the day to come back to Southampton from Yarmouth instead of doing exercises. Next morning a serviceman fixed it. Buy the way he said that it’s the regular problem with this engine because Mr.Manning is buying used parts for replacements. So 1,5 days from our 5 days course were wasted.

Of course that it was absolutely clear that we got a few nice (more or less) sailing days instead of studying course. Of course that Mr.Manning refuse that proposal to refund the payment or even a part. It was not a surprise. I’ve got the 3d surprise when I saw that everyone got the certificate! Ever the old lady (about 65-70) whose role was just a passenger for that 5 days got Compenent Crew certificate, even her husband whose role wasn’t much more advanced got Coastal skipper certificate!

So when you are hearing Mr.Manning words that he had collected people with the necessary competences for that 3 tragic voyages – you should realize the real level of “competence” of Mr.Manning’s students.

I don’t want this post be accepted as revenge of unhappy customer. Of course that I’ve been unhappy but I easily can understand the Mr.Manning’s reason to do this way – we are living in the age of economic efficiency. But! There is something more valuable then economic efficiency – human’s life! So there is no matter for reasons – there are just deeds and consequences.

P.S. There was the 4th surprise in that story – when RYA ignored this story (of course that I informed them) as an evidence that someone in sailing education business raised the value economic efficiency over human life and hadn’t stopped the Mr.Manning’s bloody business. My story is just the pre-story for next 3 accidents but it shows the whole concatenation that has taken to current victims.

P.P.S. I won’t be surprised if I investigation find that Mr.Manning especially sent his yachts to be sank to get insurance payout to clear debts. But I haven’t still got any information about it up to now.

 

[zambego]

P.P.S. I won’t be surprised if I investigation find that Mr.Manning especially sent his yachts to be sank to get insurance payout to clear debts. But I haven’t still got any information about it up to now.

you sir, are an idiot.

 

[sarabande]

I think the passion of a wronged customer, whose native language is not English, cannot be underestimated.

Corners were cut.

 

[Moonshining]

you sir, are an idiot.

It took you 2 1/2 months to think up that response?