Hornblower.. Navigation and Battles

[Reverend Ludd]

Having started with Hornblower as a youngster and done Aubrey I can recomend the series by Richard Woodman which features Nathaniel Drinkwater.There are fourteen books in the series taking him from midshipman to an Elder of Trinity House.He does Trafagar as a prisoner on a French ship so you get another perspective.I got the books from charity shops etc and some from Amazon.There are some omnibus editions with three books in one.

Thanks, I have just ordered the first couple of the series.
An eye for the fleet and the Kings Cutter

 

[strakeryrius]

RN gunnery drill was the best in the world then and the skill levels of the crews were also the best. Also the RN had devised systems that let innovative leaders like Nelson have the freedom to try new tactics and win, hence the great victories such as the Nile and Trafalgar.

One of the reasons the British Naval gunnery was so good was that they practised with live ammo. Most other navies simply went through the drill. Also the spanish navy had very few proper naval gunners, so had to use army gunners to msan their cannons.

 

[Woodlouse]

I've just done some reading about the Battle of Lyngør in 1812. Have a look at a chart of the area and the town, now, I feel pretty smug sailing though that lot with a 35 footer.

They took a fecking 64 gun line of battleship through.

People must have been made of different stuff back then.

 

[maxi77]

One of the reasons the British Naval gunnery was so good was that they practised with live ammo. Most other navies simply went through the drill. Also the spanish navy had very few proper naval gunners, so had to use army gunners to msan their cannons.

And how did they manage that, back then the RN was paid for by the trade it made possible. The RN was seen by polititians and the rich as an investment so it got what it needed. From the end of the Cromwellian Commonwealth till the Victorian era the RN was properly funded for the political and commercial task it was expected to undertake, and during the Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars therre was never a shortage of funding. That also was why the men had decent terms which meant there were enough real seamen to man the ships where as the French and Spanish were very short of skilled manpower.

There was also the difference in philosophy, the RN always intended to batter the enemy with gunfire till they surrendered, hence the great emphasis on gunnery, where as the Froggies intended to sail alongside and board and thus overwhelm the crew

 

[Reverend Ludd]

There was also the difference in philosophy, the RN always intended to batter the enemy with gunfire till they surrendered, hence the great emphasis on gunnery, where as the Froggies intended to sail alongside and board and thus overwhelm the crew

That's the nub of it, if you look at the amount of land troops carried by the French and Spanish it shows this to be true. There is a fantastic book on the subject that I read recently, I'll dig it out and post the name.

 

[Nostrodamus]

I also believed that theBritish boats were better due to better designs. I also understand they were the first to anti-foul their boats in that they put copper on the bottom so making them so much faster.

 

[maxi77]

That's the nub of it, if you look at the amount of land troops carried by the French and Spanish it shows this to be true. There is a fantastic book on the subject that I read recently, I'll dig it out and post the name.

,

To be fair the Froggies had a reputation for designing pretty handy ships and for good sail handling drills. They however did have a serious manning problem by 1805 and were very short of real seamen. Remember in those days it was reckoned to take 5 years to convert a landsman to a seaman. Spain was not the most willing partner in that stage of the war and had not had time to properly man it's ships hence the large number of soldiers.

It is also worth noting that Nelson's fleet was manned by a wide range of nationalities the RN was then clearly a desirable employer.

 

[mcframe]

And how did they manage that, back then the RN was paid for by the trade it made possible. The RN was seen by polititians and the rich as an investment so it got what it needed. From the end of the Cromwellian Commonwealth till the Victorian era the RN was properly funded for the political and commercial task it was expected to undertake, and during the Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars therre was never a shortage of funding.

Hence my heretical observation that, these days, the white should dip to the red, 'cos if there had been no MN, then there would have been no need for the RN.

The reprint of Clerk of Eldin's _ESSAY ON NAVAL TACTICS_ is recommended for uber-bores like myself ;->
http://www.naval-military-press.com/essay-on-naval-tactics-systematical-and-historical-1804.html

 

[Twister_Ken]

They were always after the 'wind gauge'. I've got one of those, made by TackTick.

 

[Reverend Ludd]

That's the nub of it, if you look at the amount of land troops carried by the French and Spanish it shows this to be true. There is a fantastic book on the subject that I read recently, I'll dig it out and post the name.

This is the book.
If you are at all interested in naval history and how it developed keeping us as a nation at the front of the race ( sometimes behind ) this is the one.

Arthur Herman TO RULE THE WAVES

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rule-Waves-Arthur-Herman/dp/0340734191

 

[Reverend Ludd]

,

To be fair the Froggies had a reputation for designing pretty handy ships and for good sail handling drills. They however did have a serious manning problem by 1805 and were very short of real seamen. Remember in those days it was reckoned to take 5 years to convert a landsman to a seaman. Spain was not the most willing partner in that stage of the war and had not had time to properly man it's ships hence the large number of soldiers.

It is also worth noting that Nelson's fleet was manned by a wide range of nationalities the RN was then clearly a desirable employer.

Not the first time a "manning problem" cost them dearly. If you go back to the time of the 100 yr war it was the british idea that a peasant with a longbow should make up part of the full time professional army and the french belief that only the gentry were needed and the peasants could be armed only where necessary led to them getting hiding after hiding.

 

[Nostrodamus]

so how long did the 100 year war last?

 

[Reverend Ludd]

so how long did the 100 year war last?

I thought, what, he's having a laugh. 100 years of course !!

However my mate Wiki says "The Hundred Years' War was a series of wars waged from 1337 to 1453"

 

[Twister_Ken]

Bernard Cornwell, who wrote the Sharpe novels, also wrote a short series about an English longbow man. Good stuff, and if typical Cornwell, well researched. Harlequin, Vagabond and Heretic.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

And how did they manage that, back then the RN was paid for by the trade it made possible. The RN was seen by polititians and the rich as an investment so it got what it needed. From the end of the Cromwellian Commonwealth till the Victorian era the RN was properly funded for the political and commercial task it was expected to undertake, and during the Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars therre was never a shortage of funding.

During the Napoloeonic Wars expenditure on the Navy has been estimated to have been in the region of 40% of GDP or even more so it played a huge part in economic growth and the industrial revolution. The phrase 'military-industrial complex' is attributed to Eisenhower in the late 50s but the phenomenon goes back to the 18th century.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

It is quite amazing how general perception of the RN in the Napoleonic wars is so misguided. Many assume that most of the men were pressed where in reality most were volunteers because in reality RN pay and conditions were good. Pressing was needed in wartime mainly because merchant pay went up dramatically because of the risk factor and war better than RN pay though conditions were usually worse. In peace and there was a lot of peace in the period, RN pay was normally better than merchant pay.

Equally officers were not chinless wonders from the aristocracy as in the army but came from a wide social background. Many were sons of warrant officers taken on as midshipmen by captains whom the warrant officers had served under. Pepys had ensured that no one became a lieutenant without passing suitable exams so all officers had a basic competance.

Yes life was hard but so was life ashore or in the merchant navy. A good captain who got good prizes meant his crew all did well finacially and many retired fron the RN assuing they survived with a pretty good nest egg. Punishment could be harsh though many captains did not like using the lash, but remember ashore you could be hung for stealing a loaf of bread so in many ways RN punishment was not that harsh compared to civvy justice.

At trafalgar Nelson had many more guns than Wellington at Waterloo and bigger guns too. RN gunnery drill was the best in the world then and the skill levels of the crews were also the best. Also the RN had devised systems that let innovative leaders like Nelson have the freedom to try new tactics and win, hence the great victories such as the Nile and Trafalgar.

Just a backup to the excellent material above: the ships that mutinied at the Nore and at Spithead in 1797 did NOT demand relaxation of discipline (though they did demand the removal of bad officers). Indeed, they often imposed harsher discipline than that imposed by the Articles of War and enforced by the officers.

It is always worth considering that a ship like Victory carried a crew of about 850. The commissioned officers would be relatively few - perhaps 5 or 6 lieutenants, 20 or so midshipmen (many of whom would be ineffective, being no more than young boys), and a few marine officers. The warrant officers would be as likely to side with the crew as with the commissioned officers; the marines (one of whose tasks was to enforce discipline) were of the same class and background as the sailors. In any case, the marines were greatly outnumbered by the sailors, and also berthed near them.

So, basically, if a crew were discontented, they could easily remove the officers. And, in fact, cases like the mutiny of the Hermione and the great mutinies at Spithead and the Nore show that sailors would do so if they were sufficiently provoked. The picture often painted of a down-trodden crew kept in line by vicious punishments simply isn't true - and was acknowledged to be so at the time. Most captains strove for a happy ship; the dictum (repeated in both Hornblower and Aubrey novels) was that the only efficient ship was a happy ship. The flip side was that the sailors understood the need for discipline and instant response to orders; that it made for a safe ship with clear rules of behaviour.

It is noteworthy that following the Napoleonic Wars many officers (Marryat is the best known) campaigned for the abolition of flogging, believing it to be both brutal and ineffective, and that its use was the sign of a poor captain. Even during the Napoleonic wars, flogging was strictly limited by Admiralty orders, though it was possible for an officer to exceed the limits without reprimand.

 

[Cutter]

Another excellent read is Roger Knight's definitive biography of Nelson. He was Director of the National Maritime Museum at Greenwich and a Professor at Greenwich University.

It turns out Cochrane may have been my great(x7) uncle! My middle name is Cochrane and I have inherited a fob-watch with the Dundonald crest on it (they were Earls of Dundonald). I'm always in trouble - like him - just havent inherited his sailing skills!

 

[HinewaisMan]

There was also the difference in philosophy, the RN always intended to batter the enemy with gunfire till they surrendered, hence the great emphasis on gunnery, where as the Froggies intended to sail alongside and board and thus overwhelm the crew

I was reading a book about the development of the frigate a while back and it talked about why the Brits took so many enemy ships.

You're dead right about the different tactics - the French would go for the rigging with chainshot to disable and then board. The Brits would simply shoot seven shades of sh!t out of anything that passed their gunports at eye level.

Like the French gundecks.

And they were putting out 5 shots to the French 2.

The comparative casualty figures were incredible. The Brits often lost very few men - 10 to 20 was not unusual, often less, surprisingly often none - the French would loose 50,60,70 even 80% of their crew.

The French basically just ran out of men - not just to lay the guns but sail the ship.

 

[mcframe]

And they were putting out 5 shots to the French 2.

"When I am without orders and unexpected occurrences arrive I shall always act as I think the honour and glory of my King and Country demand. But in case signals can neither be seen or perfectly understood, no captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy."

"The business of an English Comdr-in-Chief being first to bring the Enemy’s fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, I mean that of laying his Ships on board that of the Enemy as expeditiously as possible, and secondly to continue there without separating until the business is decided."

Great transcripts of letters & dispatches at:

http://www.wtj.com/archives/nelson/

 

[strakeryrius]

And how did they manage that, back then the RN was paid for by the trade it made possible. The RN was seen by polititians and the rich as an investment so it got what it needed. From the end of the Cromwellian Commonwealth till the Victorian era the RN was properly funded for the political and commercial task it was expected to undertake, and during the Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars therre was never a shortage of funding.

That is only part of the raison d'etre for the strength of the blue-water navy in those days. The flip side of that is that our navy was our bulwark against the very real threat of invasion, and had been since the days of Drake.

During the first decade or so of the French Revolutionary/Napoleonic War the country was in great fear of invasion by the all-conquering French army. Napoleon had been building troop transport barges at his channel ports since the Peace of Amiens and the destruction of the Franco/Spanish fleet at Trafalgar removed that threat once and for all and allowed Britain to go properly on the offensive, which is why Nelson was so celebrated as one of our greatest heroes.