Honest advice

[Leisuresecuritysolutions]

I was wondering if any of you readers could help me.
Iv'e been working on a security system which i think will be perfect for the marine world as it runs of its own power supply so doesn't drain batt's etc. But...... before i put anymore time, effort and money into it, i need to know if there is a demand for it. Is there a lot of thefts and break in's in the boating world etc?
I'm almost at the testing stage but as i have been speaking to marina's and boat builders i have had a few negative comments and dead ends.
I would really appreciate some honest answers.

 

[NealB]

Firstly....welcome to the forum! There is an amazing depth of experience, knowledge and helpfulness that can be tapped into here.

I think you would get better responses if you ask some very specific questions.

You only ask two questions, both of which are way too generalised (is "there is a demand for it? Is there a lot of thefts and break in's in the boating world etc", ).

Some idea about how your product works, how much it will cost and why it's better than what's already available, would also enable people to give you meaningful feedback.

Good luck with your project!

 

[prv]

Yes, thefts from moored boats (not so much theft of boats) is a problem.

This doesn't automatically mean that everyone will rush out and buy your device; it sounds like you don't know much about the situation, so how good a solution will it be?

I'd be interested to hear more about it.

Pete

 

[Searush]

By & large there are not a huge number of break-ins, but that doesn't make them less distressing should they happen to you. There is quite a bit of fear about the problem tho & that should sell your product if it does deter thieves.

Marinas often have their own security arrangements which may explain their reluctance to admit to any problem.

 

[prv]

Marinas often have their own security arrangements which may explain their reluctance to admit to any problem.

I think the problem is much reduced in marinas. It's mostly boats on isolated pontoons and swinging moorings that get broken into.

Pete

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I am not looking for additional security beyond marking, notices, hasps, padlocks and bars (installed across the hatches inside). In Scotland theft from yachts is not reported as being too much of an issue, nor is theft of vessels. There are a couple of Marinas that I would consider a higher risk of theft exists.

If I was interested in enhanced security it would be in the form of alerts to my mobile phone / the marina office activated from vessel movement or intrusion. However, I just don't see the need.

 

[lw395]

There are problems with gear theft.
Occasional break ins.
There are plenty of alarms on the market, including GSM ones, but the only people I know who have them are DIY electronics people playing.
I'm more likely to be bothered by the kind of theft that does not require breaking in, in one spate a few years ago a lot of boats had halyards etc stolen from the moorings.

Outboard theft is a recurrent worry.
RIBs are more of a problem.
Vandalism is an issue in some places.

 

[Tranona]

There have been many security devices on the market over the years, ranging from simple alarms to remote systems based on radio transmissions, but none seem to have made much impression.

So the question is - what is the problem? Security in marinas is generally good. Moorings potentially less secure. However accessibility for thieves is also less good, and arguably the pickings are not worth it. Electronics and outboards seem to be the most popular items for theft, but insurance companies generally don't require any special precautions except on outboards. Neither do they offer reductions in premiums for fitting any security system. This suggests the risk is low.

Might be worth talking to the Marine sections of the police in densely populated coastal areas like Poole or the Hamble to get some idea of the extent of thieving from boats.

 

[Searush]

As an after thought; I presume you are also considering the Motorhome & Caravan market - including static vans?

Also might your system work for tents? Not a major problem, but it is increasing as it is so easy to do.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

As others have said, Marinas take security seriously; it's one of the reasons people pay their charges. My own has a full set of motion sensitive IR cameras, with automatic tracking of moving objects, automatic handover from camera to camera and so on as well as pretty good physical security. You could get onto the pontoons without the security codes, but only at a high risk of drowning or breaking your neck! People on moorings have the advantage that their vessel is less approachable without fore-thought, eliminating casual theft.

Otherwise, most of us accept that some of the fittings on a boat are basically unprotectable in a manner that would deter a serious thief; for example, a liferaft secured using a mechanism that would deter a professional thief would probably defeat the object of having the liferaft! Basically, padlocks etc. are more symbolic than real protection; any serious thief would simply use a set of bolt-cutters. High security locks such as are used on bikes (D-lock and so on) in most cases aren't suitable. The locks on most boat's hatches are also easily broken; after all, entry to most boats is protected by a relatively thin bit of wood, ply or acrylic plastic. And in most cases, it would be difficult to increase the level of security without structural alteration to the boat.

Given all this, an alarm system is unlikely to make much penetration into the market UNLESS it is very cheap - similarly priced, perhaps, to a decent padlock. Many of us live some distance from our boat - I am 8 hours drive away, though this is extreme and an hour would probably be more the average. So, an alarm would only be useful if it were linked to some person or organization that could respond promptly and reliably. But again, in many cases that means the Marina security; and they are already providing reasonable security measures. Boats not in a marina, which is a substantial proportion, would have a problem in identifying a responder to the alarm; the police are in general not equipped or manned to provide this.

Finally, except for removable equipment like dinghys, liferafts and outboards, there isn't an awful lot of equipment on a boat that has a resale value. Electronics are usually built in and have elements that are inaccessible, such as masthead transducers and through-hull fittings. Yes, you can sell them - but they have to be carefully dismantled, not ripped out by a burglar.

So, I'd say that unless the device can be marketed at a very low price - significantly less that £100, and probably less than £50 - it simply isn't going to fly.

PS, a system relying on GSM messaging (such as some hobbyists have built) would not be a reliable means of notifying people - GSM messages are NOT guaranteed to propagate instantly, and I have encountered substantial delays (several hours) when messages have passed from network to network. My daughters tend to communicate by text message, and are both on different networks from me, so I encounter this one several times a year on average!

 

[sighmoon]

I think the problem is much reduced in marinas. It's mostly boats on isolated pontoons and swinging moorings that get broken into.

Pete

Indeed. When our boat was on a swinging mooring, my biggest concerns were that it would break free, or sink somehow. If the alarm were reasonably priced (swinging moorings appeal to the budget conscious sailor) and could check for those things too, I might have been in the market.

Current boat is in a marina, and I'm hoping they keep an eye on things.

 

[Highndry]

Iv'e been working on a security system which i think will be perfect for the marine world as it runs of its own power supply so doesn't drain batt's etc.

Is it a big, liveaboard, dog?

Seriously though, I don't have much experience of boat ownership but most of the recent security 'innovations' I've seen or been offered have revolved around GPS and APPs. i.e you get a message on your iPhone saying that you have unwelcome visitors on your pride and joy. If that's the line you're thinking along (and I have no evidence that it is) my first question would be why would I want to know my boat is being broken into when I'm too far away from it (I suspect most boat owners are many miles from their moorings) to do anything about it?

However, if you're peddling razor wire that springs out of stanchions, I'm all for it.

 

[Nicholas123]

Might be worth talking to the Marine sections of the police in densely populated coastal areas like Poole or the Hamble to get some idea of the extent of thieving from boats.

Having had experience of the police when reporting thefts etc in Portsmouth I would'nt go holding my breath over their competence.Do they admit to the amount of thefts going on? Somehow I doubt it.

 

[Conachair]

I was wondering if any of you readers could help me.
Iv'e been working on a security system which i think will be perfect for the marine world as it runs of its own power supply so doesn't drain batt's etc. But...... before i put anymore time, effort and money into it, i need to know if there is a demand for it. Is there a lot of thefts and break in's in the boating world etc?
I'm almost at the testing stage but as i have been speaking to marina's and boat builders i have had a few negative comments and dead ends.
I would really appreciate some honest answers.

The cruising market might be a better place to pitch, boats living at anchor. But hard to tell without more details of how your system works.

 

[Lakesailor]

Mostly been covered really.
If your device is to alert the owner via their phone that there is activity on their boat it will not help very much. My boat is 70 yds from the house , but I would imagine that even if I nipped across the road in response to a message I would either miss the boat D) or whilst chasing them off, not have been in time to prevent the damage that pilferers create.
The parameters that the device use to create an alert are difficult to pin down.
Movement is a no-no. Boats move. Spiders live in cabins, curtain flap, things fall over.
Hatch sensors? Marine environments mean they will probably fail at some point and alert you when you are 100 miles away to a non-event.

Own power supply? Solar panel? Worth knicking.

I think you need to identify the problem before looking for solutions.

 

[neilf39]

I could buy a cheap (£10) acoustic alarm from maplins and few magnetic relays to wire in series so if anyone opened any hatch it would go off. Would draw a lot less than my solar panel recharges the batteries so last indefinitely. Maybe useful in a marina where someone might investigate the noise but not on a remote mooring. GPS/GSM ones are available to send messages and can also have acoustic alarms so at least you know its happened. They also can have sensors in the bilge for water ingress and fire sensors etc.

If an obvious alarm does not deter someone in the first place then it may stop the odd opportunist who scarpers when it goes off, but most tea leaves get in and out so quickly they don't get caught. An alarm does not tend stop the damage caused by a break-in which is the most annoying and costly bit if you don't leave too much of value behind. That would need the likes of a BMW proximity alarm which warns people to back off first but that could be amusing in a marina.

Maybe something that could detect an outboard was being removed at the start of the removal process would be useful.

 

[YachtAllegro]

I think its the response issue that is a large part of the problem, isn't it? As others have said, its moorings that probably have more of a problem than marinas, and that's just where there's rarely going to be anyone around to take an interest even if an alarm does go off. And while the text message approach seems superficially attractive, most boat owners live a considerable distance from their boats - faced with the prospect of a 4-5 hour round trip in the middle of the week because the alarm's gone off, I think I'd just hope it had been a false alarm and plan to investigate when I next went across.

I suppose something that triggered a chunk of movie recording that might show enough to ID the thieves removing things might have potential....?

Cheers
Patrick

 

[macd]

Is it a big, liveaboard, dog?

You took the words right out of my mouth, Highndry.

Alternatively, I'd recommend some sort of proximity sensor triggering a very deep and scary growl (perhaps followed by a large number of volts up the jacksie).

If there is a market for the OP's system, whatever it is, it's likely to be biggest in, say, the Caribbean where theft can be a big issue (and many of the boaters have pots of cash). Unless it's remarkably cheap and effective, my guess is that the UK is perhaps one of the least promising markets.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I think its the response issue that is a large part of the problem, isn't it? As others have said, its moorings that probably have more of a problem than marinas, and that's just where there's rarely going to be anyone around to take an interest even if an alarm does go off. And while the text message approach seems superficially attractive, most boat owners live a considerable distance from their boats - faced with the prospect of a 4-5 hour round trip in the middle of the week because the alarm's gone off, I think I'd just hope it had been a false alarm and plan to investigate when I next went across.

I suppose something that triggered a chunk of movie recording that might show enough to ID the thieves removing things might have potential....?

Cheers
Patrick

I understand that video of evidential value is difficult to obtain and uses costly equipment. Clue - the video must not be editable, or the defence lawyer will say "How can you prove it WASN'T edited?". This basically means analogue recording - and when was the last time you saw an analogue video camera? - or a sealed recording system. So, unless the tea-leaves have managed to miss every single crime program, movie or book for the last 100 years, and have left their finger-prints about, your video isn't much use in court. I suppose you could get lucky and find they've scratched themselves, leaving lots of nice DNA, but of course, that won't get used because it is expensive!

 

[prv]

So, unless the tea-leaves have managed to miss every single crime program, movie or book for the last 100 years, and have left their finger-prints about

Having been burgled several times (at different places), and in each case the perpetrator having been arrested shortly afterwards due to prints on file, it appears that this is exactly what they often do do. I'm always wary of "underestimating the enemy", but it appears that many petty criminals really are that stupid.

Pete