HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

[Old Harry]

I've heard my local pub marks up its beer too!

Falmouth would not be making a great deal of money out of me buying 5litres for my outboard, it takes time to serve the fuel and take the money, never mind the capital cost of the pontoon etc. Some places, when I had my first boat, I suspect they made a loss on some poor chap walking down to the fuel pump to sell me 15 litres of red.

Falmouth are offering a service, not everything they do has to make a return BUT they do have a very large hole in their pension pot

 

[lw395]

What I can’t understand is why so many people appear to have caved in and actually seem to WANT to pay more for their fuel when the boat goes nowhere a road in its life. Sure, let’s all pay more tax...not!

Anyone moaning about paying more for their fuel has been defrauding the church since the declaration of propulsion/heat split system was introduced. Not too many people are going to stand up and protest.

 

[Bru]

Final point. Petroleum dispensing licences are granted for a specific set up. This tank, this pipeline, this dispensing pump. An additional tank, pipe run and pump will require an additional licence or at least an addition to the existing licence. This is where the additional costs lie beyond the bare costs of the new kit.

It would require a variation on the existing site licence approved by the regional Petroloeum Officer (a function actually carred out day to day by Trading Standards). Actually, to be pedantic, it would require amendment of the site plan annex attached to the licence, the licence itself is not (usually) specific

The application fee for approval of a straightforward amendment, and this would be a straightforward amendment, is between £40 and £70 (it varies from council to council). Provided the equipment is type approved and it's a routine installation it's highly unlikely Trading Standards would even bother to spend any time on the application beyond rubber stamping it. If they did decide to dig deeper the costs would rise but by hundreds rather than thousands of pounds

Obviously, it's a different ball game if we're talking about underground tanks and/or larger (50,000l and upwards) installations but an operator who can justify that size of tankage is going to be generating significantly higher sales

 

[dgadee]

There are very few cruising motorboatalists in the north west of Scotland. I can't recall ever having seen one in Lochinver for example. The local mobos are mostly small and outboard powered.

Angus is correct. There is little call - in comparison with consumption by deep sea boats - for diesel so why would Lochinver bother with white? Boats coming round Cape Wrath ( for those who do the proper round Britain trip) would be stymied. Easy for southerners to say, go to a fuel station when they themselves won't have to.

 

[lw395]

Angus is correct. There is little call - in comparison with consumption by deep sea boats - for diesel so why would Lochinver bother with white? Boats coming round Cape Wrath ( for those who do the proper round Britain trip) would be stymied. Easy for southerners to say, go to a fuel station when they themselves won't have to.

We sail, Scotland has plenty of wind, and a lot more hot air.

 

[dgadee]

I did round Britain ( the proper route) and was surprised by how much was windless. Maybe you don't get out enough to experience that?

 

[superheat6k]

Anyone moaning about paying more for their fuel has been defrauding the church since the declaration of propulsion/heat split system was introduced. Not too many people are going to stand up and protest.

I am sure you are a taxman, a masochist, or just a bloody fool who does not understand the basic principle of taxation, and the right of the common man to object where unreasonable.

WTF is this to do at all with the church BTW ?

 

[Old Harry]

I am sure you are a taxman, a masochist, or just a bloody fool who does not understand the basic principle of taxation, and the right of the common man to object where unreasonable.

WTF is this to do at all with the church BTW ?

God knows :triumphant:

 

[dgadee]

Anyone moaning about paying more for their fuel has been defrauding the church since the declaration of propulsion/heat split system was introduced. Not too many people are going to stand up and protest.

Don't you understand it's not about what we pay. It's about being able to get fuel.

 

[KAL]

I am sure you are a taxman, a masochist, or just a bloody fool who does not understand the basic principle of taxation, and the right of the common man to object where unreasonable.

WTF is this to do at all with the church BTW ?

Thank you Superheat. I don’t know many people who are willing to pay more than they actually have to, for something they buy, much less campaign to do so. Like most ordinary people, I have to try to get the best value for my spend. When I buy petrol or diesel for a car, I actively seek out the cheapest locally and go there. Why would anyone actively want to pay more for something, given the choice?

 

[RJJ]

Can anyone justify leisure yachts using lower-tax diesel....well, yes!

Excise on fuel for roads supports investment in roads. And acts as a crude device to deter congestion. And reflects the severe social cost to health of diesel particulates in urban areas. None of which are reasonably applied to seafarers.

Which leaves you with the fact it's just a revenue-raiser. Over to you for your taste in politics; I am of the view that the government is large and wasteful and we would in general be better off with lower taxes.

 

[[70521]]

On all the boats I have sailed, there has always been a large spare canister of diesel, about 25l size, in the cockpit locker. A second 25l container could easily be stored in most boats. A tank full and 2 x 25l containers should easily see most sailing yachts on the west coast get about between facilities offering quay side white.

It's not hard to solve, it was the norm when I started sailing in the 80's to be that bit more self sufficient when going out the Clyde, no one batted an eye lid or wrung hands with fear and worry - folks even carried collapsable, shopping bag trolly devices to lug containers. This lack of can do attitude goes along with the desperate desire for pontoons, moorings and phone signals. White diesel is not hard to solve for sailing boats.

Small children walk 10 miles each day for water in Africa, carrying a can in each hand and balancing one on their head head. It should be a piece of cake for us to manage white diesel in remote areas where quay side facilities are not available. Just get on with it.

+1

 

[Daydream believer]

Small children walk 10 miles each day for water in Africa, carrying a can in each hand and balancing one on their head head. It should be a piece of cake for us to manage white diesel in remote areas where quay side facilities are not available. Just get on with it.

Well for a fiver a time you could possibly hire an illegal immigrant to do it for you here if you felt so inclined.

 

[Elessar]

Well for a fiver a time you could possibly hire an illegal immigrant to do it for you here if you felt so inclined.

Will I have to up it to a tenner for the 600litres I need today?

 

[Daydream believer]

Will I have to up it to a tenner for the 600litres I need today?

Wow!! £ 10-00 you lot are well healed.
Down south Essex a tenner on Canvey Island would buy a 5 kids a blue fizzy drink, a big Mac, a nights stay in a burned out car for mum & lover & a nicked 32 inch flat screen TV for whole week. Might even buy some new trainers as well, if they could get in & out of the shop without being caught:encouragement:

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Thank you Superheat. I don’t know many people who are willing to pay more than they actually have to, for something they buy, much less campaign to do so. Like most ordinary people, I have to try to get the best value for my spend. When I buy petrol or diesel for a car, I actively seek out the cheapest locally and go there. Why would anyone actively want to pay more for something, given the choice?

The reason for wanting white diesel by the waterside is so those whose idea of fun is sailing to Belgium don't run the risk of a hefty fine on arrival. For sailing boats, as in the far flung bits of Scotland, the cost saving of red over white is pretty immaterial, it's availability that matters.

Other EU countries have overlooked UK visiting boats turning up with red in their tanks, but given that the UK lost its legal case for allowing it in leisure boats, those other countries may take a dim view of this practice too before long.

 

[KAL]

The reason for wanting white diesel by the waterside is so those whose idea of fun is sailing to Belgium don't run the risk of a hefty fine on arrival. For sailing boats, as in the far flung bits of Scotland, the cost saving of red over white is pretty immaterial, it's availability that matters.

Other EU countries have overlooked UK visiting boats turning up with red in their tanks, but given that the UK lost its legal case for allowing it in leisure boats, those other countries may take a dim view of this practice too before long.

I can understand that point of view and sympathise. However, the reason all this hassle about red diesel happened in the first place is due to the EU deciding that marked fuel in leisure craft should be verboten. The UK government weren’t bothered about that and would have left us alone, as they knew that the cost of infrastructure changes would exceed the revenue gained.

Regardless of how anyone voted in the referendum, if we’re now to be an independent 3rd country, then I can’t see why the Belgians, or any other EU state, would need to get worked up about us entering their territory temporarily with vessels that comply with independent UK requirements. For example, EU vessels can carry flare guns legally, as far as I am aware. When they visit the UK, no-one boards them and confiscates their flare guns or makes a fuss, as long as the flare guns remain on board. The UK authorities would take issue if a German skipper started walking around town brandishing their (illegal here) flare pistol, but they are a temporary visitor carrying a device on board which is legal in their own country, so no one bats an eyelid. Nor should they.

Hey ho...

 

[lw395]

I am sure you are a taxman, a masochist, or just a bloody fool who does not understand the basic principle of taxation, and the right of the common man to object where unreasonable.

WTF is this to do at all with the church BTW ?

The church=HMRC in some circles.

If you wanted to object to the principle of paying full duty on diesel for propulsion, you are 11 years too late.
Plus Scotland seems very keen on all this EU stuff, take it up with Webby.

 

[lw395]

The reason for wanting white diesel by the waterside is so those whose idea of fun is sailing to Belgium don't run the risk of a hefty fine on arrival. For sailing boats, as in the far flung bits of Scotland, the cost saving of red over white is pretty immaterial, it's availability that matters.

Other EU countries have overlooked UK visiting boats turning up with red in their tanks, but given that the UK lost its legal case for allowing it in leisure boats, those other countries may take a dim view of this practice too before long.

And also the issue that visiting craft from the EU need white fuel, or to be more exact, fuel free from the euromarker.
Do you want Scotland to be open to visiting craft from Ireland or Mainland EU?

 

[lw395]

Don't you understand it's not about what we pay. It's about being able to get fuel.

You have had 11 years to think about this. What have you done about it?