Hmm! Will it happen again?

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ASW11

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Hi, this is my first post on here following a bit of a strange experience which at the moment I am at a loss to understand.

We (my wife and I) were motorsailing yesterday in short, sharp seas, off the coast of Turkey, close-hauled into wind speeds of between 25-37 knots and rising; uncomfortable, but the boat was coping and making progress. Our engine, an old but usually healthy, 27hp, Westerbeke-Leyland 30 with an electric fuel stop solenoid, was showing decent oil pressure and the water temperature was normal when, for no obvious reason, the engine simply quit and refused to start again all day. We decided to act cautiously turned and ran before the wind for a few hours to a safe bay where we stayed overnight.

The following morning (today), I checked the oil and water, found both at normal levels and cranked the engine - blow me if it didn't start! I'd gone through the "normal" thought processes of dirty fuel fuel, air, mechanical problems etc to no avail. I have since started the engine a number of times today and, to all intents and purposes, it starts and runs perfectly normally. I intend staying here at least a further night and seeing if the engine continues to act normally before moving on.

Has anyone else had a similar experience or got any views about what could have caused the engine to stop so abruptly?
 
On the basis that a diesel will continue to run so long as it gets fuel and air, I would want to know a lot more about any electrical ancillaries which could have affected it. Do you have an electric fuel pump? We had one (the type used on minis) which could get upset occasionally and benefitted from a tap with a block of wood to shock it back into action. Regardless, I would check, clean and refasten all the electrical connections including the stop solenoid - inspiration may come to you whilst you're up to your armpits in engine bay.

Rob.
 
Have you changed the fuel filter, maybe a blockage which stops sufficient fuel passing at normal load but not a large enough blockage to prevent enough for idling or running not under load. Has happened to me a few times in the past.

Or it could be dirt in the tank pick up which gradually falls out when there is no suction. I'd also back pump the pick up pipe with a dinghy pump.
 
My bet would be a blob of diesel crud sucked onto the end of the dip tube in the tank, blocking it. I had exactly that at the end of last week, while motoring onto our home berth after a week in France. The crossing back itself was pretty smooth, but while over there we had some very bouncy conditions (F7 wind over tide) which will have given the tank a good shake up. I assumed it was a blocked fuel filter, and changed it, but then found that the priming bulb was unable to suck any fuel out of the tank. After some prodding and poking it suddenly unstuck with a "squelchy" feeling, and the next squeeze squirted loads of black crud into the filter bowl.

Pete
 
Yes - exactly the same problem, beating up against a bora to Brindisi, the engine quit and wouldn't re-start.

In short it was a blocked inlet in the tank. The solution was to have the tank out, jettison the muck at the bottom and have it steam-cleaned. The pounding stirs up all the muck in the bottom of the tank.

I'd just cleared it, on the ferry berth in the outer-harbour, when the Guardia Costiera, alerted by the Pilot came to tow me in. Needless to say I got in under my own power.
The biggest drawback was helping them to complete their incident report - it took over two hours.
 
Could well be dirt in the tank collecting at the point that the fuel pipe is connected to the tank. The short sharp seas may well have stirred up any sediment in the tank. I have just had such an experience and intend to remove the mild steel tank and fit a news stainless steel tank but that means removing the engine to gain access to the tank. My temporary solution was to disconnect the inlet fuel pipe at the filter. No fuel came out because of the blockage. Blow through the pipe thus clearing the sediment from the tank to pie fitting in the tank. Had to do this on 3 occasions but it then ran fine for 50 hours. Not a long term solution but it got me home.

Before you continue the trip run the engine on usual revs in gear with the boat anchored. Thus you can check running under load. Do this for several hours to satisfy yourself that all is OK. Naturally keep a check on bearings to make certain you are not dragging your anchor.
 
We've also had exactly the same problem and under almost identical conditions. The choppy seas is the key bit. Somewhere at one of our previous fuel fill-ups we'd got a small piece of pipe wadding in the tank. The choppy seas has dislodged it from wherever it had settled and it was being sucked on to the end of the (open) fuel pick-up pipe and stopping the engine. Sometimes it would drop off immediately and the engine could be restarted, other times it had obviously been sucked on so hard it stayed put for a while before the motion of the boat (presumably) shook it off.

I go it out with the large oil pump and reservoir I use for oil changes. Removing the fuel gauge sender unit let me stick the pipe into the very bottom corner of the tank where the pick-up pipe is. I had to pump out almost a full 20 litre can of fuel before the bit of pipe wadding got sucked onto the end. Obviously I didn't know what was causing the blockage, I was expecting to suck out some sludge.

We have since had a large inspection hole and cover fitted to our stainless steel tank and we now always us a funnel with a filter in it when refuelling from bowsers, even though the drivers kick up a big fuss when we do (because it slows down the fuel delivery and wastes more of their time).
 
I had a very similar problem, motor sailing down the Sound of Sleet, into a force 6 to 7, bouncing around quite a lot.The engine cut out and although it restarted, it wasn't happy. it was obviously fuel starvation.

After a lot of investigation looking for air leaks and blockages, it turned out to be some loose sealant in the tank, the sealant had been used by the previous owner to seal the inspection cover and some had obviously dripped into the tank. The sealant had been denatured by the diesel and remained in the bottom off the tank until shaken and stirred. It ended up blocking the fuel shut off valve, which was the narrowest part of the fuel supply line.

So I'd look for a partial blockage in the fuel line, but you need to do it very systematically, starting at the fuel tank and working toward the engine, it's easy to miss something, which in retrospect is obvious, I finished up blowing through every section of the line, not pleasant, but you can feel much more back pressure if you blow.
 
+1 to all the above.
Using the 'what had changed' test, the only thing that stands out is the short steep seas you were bucking into, and the consequent likelihood that the bouncing was stirring up crud. What type of crud and precisely where, only your investigation will show.
If a full investigation isn't practicable in your present circumstances, I'd suggest that at the least you should run the engine under significant load for a while to see if it performs as normally as it did this morning.

As to the question in your heading, there are two applicable rules:
1. If it can happen, sooner or later it will.
2. If it already has happened, sooner or later it will happen again.

Good luck.
 
Even if all appears well, I'd be inclined to run the engine at fast cruising revs under load for a good while - 15mins or more, if possible. If all's well, whatever was the cause has gone away (for now - expect it back :p)

If you can, clean the fuel tank thouroughly. If, like me, access to the inside of is tank is next to impossible, that isn't really an option, but you could empty what you can then use a PELA pump to slurp out the bottom centimetre or so along with as much crud as you can reach.

Also, consider fitting twin filters in parallel, with taps so that you run on one and have the other ready to go in the time it takes to turn a few taps. I did this after the engine died a very awkward moment - not quite brown trousers, but close. Unless you do it every day, CAV elements are evil things to change in a hurry, so I visited my local car breaker to get a couple of screw-on filter holders, but you can get the proper marine version (with prices to match) from ASAP, which is where I got my taps from.

There are those who say CAV filters are great and, if you can't change one in the dark, in a gale, while the crew's screaming something about rocks, you shouldn't be out there. I reckon there's something wrong with a design that has two O rings that are nearly enough the same size that it's possible to mix them up with, if not dire, at least rather leaky consequences.
 
macd said:
+1 to all the above.
Using the 'what had changed' test, the only thing that stands out is the short steep seas you were bucking into, and the consequent likelihood that the bouncing was stirring up crud. What type of crud and precisely where, only your investigation will show.
If a full investigation isn't practicable in your present circumstances, I'd suggest that at the least you should run the engine under significant load for a while to see if it performs as normally as it did this morning.

As to the question in your heading, there are two applicable rules:
1. If it can happen, sooner or later it will.
2. If it already has happened, sooner or later it will happen again.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

3. It will recur at the least convenient moment. Not just choppy seas, but with a tanker/submarine/rock bearing down on you.
 
If it proves to be anything that you cannot fix, and you are near Marmaris I can recommend you a diesel repair man that I have used for all my engine and gearbox maintenance.
 
Hello again. Well, thanks for all the suggestions of possible causes for our engine stopping and I'm very happy to report that the "problem" seems to have been solved. In short, what seemed to have been happening is that there was indeed some air in the system which had formed a lock in a loop in the intake fuel pipe between the tank and water separator. It took a wee-while for this to be found and probably what had happened was that, given the sea-state/maybe over time, the air had found it's way into the loop and, eventually, only a dribble of diesel was being allowed through. A good blow from the exhaust end of the separator pipe, rumble of bubbles in the tank and, bingo, the engine runs again! Now we're trying to figure just how we might better run the fuel pipe. Again thanks.
 
I am afraid it will

ASW11 said:
A good blow from the exhaust end of the separator pipe, rumble of bubbles in the tank and, bingo, the engine runs again! Now we're trying to figure just how we might better run the fuel pipe. Again thanks.
Click to expand...

I was left with the impression that the engined started right away. Or was it after the good blow? In any case I believe it was sludge that returned to your tank just waiting your next uncomfortable moment to slip into your pipe. It is a dirty job no question, but cleaning or at least visually checking your tank is me think a must.
One more tip. Since sludge comes in various sizes, you can buy a few plastic screen filters ( 1,5 euro each) lorry tracks use and insert them before the separator. In this way all small particles are gathered there for you to check every day before blocking expensive and difficult to open primary and secondary filters. Then, if there is still an engine stop, it means a big one piece sludge blocked the pipe itself. A blow with either the dinghy pump as said by others or you can stick the horn...as we did once in anger and it worked a treat..
 
ASW11 said:
Our engine, an old but usually healthy, 27hp, Westerbeke-Leyland 30 with an electric fuel stop solenoid, was showing decent oil pressure and the water temperature was normal when, for no obvious reason, the engine simply quit and refused to start again all day.
Click to expand...

The fact that you specifically mention the stop solenoid makes me think you suspect that may be the trouble.

Have you had trouble with it before?

Have you tried disconnecting it and seeing if the problem happens again?
 
ASW11 said:
Hi, this is my first post on here following a bit of a strange experience which at the moment I am at a loss to understand.

We (my wife and I) were motorsailing yesterday in short, sharp seas, off the coast of Turkey, close-hauled into wind speeds of between 25-37 knots and rising; uncomfortable,?
Click to expand...

Engine has got more sense than you admit. I would look after it it has some useful attributes
 
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