Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

[lw395]

A couple of points that some people might not appreciate: I have been in the privileged position of sailing a boat of a similar size and I’ve also sailed a long keeled schooner (albeit that one was only 40’)

121’ sailing schooners with long keels don’t behave in the same way as a modern finned keeled yacht.
They respond to the helm rather slowly (which you may notice in the video)
They still obey the laws of sailing regarding centre of effort of the sails though... Bearing away would be difficult if not almost impossible without a major alteration of sail trim. With lots of people on deck (who perhaps aren’t sailors or aren’t used to handling the schooners gear) then the skipper needs to think a long way ahead.

It certainly looks as though bearing away would have been a better option, but it would probably have needed earlier coordinated action from helm and sail trim.

....!

Basically no action was taken until far too late.
So, you need to ease some sheets to bear away.
Same as any other boat, you shouldn't be setting more sail than you've got adequate crew to manage.

The problem is the basic concept of charging around in a confined, busy area, with a boat load of 'paying guests'.
You need enough crew to manage the boat, and some more to manage the guests.

 

[Poignard]

...
You need enough crew to manage the boat, and some more to manage the guests.

 

[lw395]

I wasn't joking. When you're running a big boat with 'guests', it's a serious job keeping them out of danger from the boom, winches, sheets etc. Small boat sailors are often the worst guests, they don't realise the scale of the thing when you let the sheet out on 90ft of boat there is a lot of force and it won't stop because you're in the way. It is industrial machinery.

 

[Poignard]

I wasn't joking.

I know you weren't. I was amused by the succinct way you put it.

 

[bedouin]

Is there something very close to the starboard side of the ship - looks like a buoy maybe. Perhaps there wasn't enough water to pass green to green

Looks as if the ships turned into each other with the ship turning to port as the schooner put the tiller over - might not even have been an attempt to tack - perhaps just wanted to use momentum to carry the boat out of the way.

 

[lw395]

Is there something very close to the starboard side of the ship - looks like a buoy maybe. Perhaps there wasn't enough water to pass green to green

Looks as if the ships turned into each other with the ship turning to port as the schooner put the tiller over - might not even have been an attempt to tack - perhaps just wanted to use momentum to carry the boat out of the way.

I would imagine the ship was anticipating anything but the schooner cutting across its bow, so turning to port is what you'd expect the ship to do.

 

[bedouin]

I would imagine the ship was anticipating anything but the schooner cutting across its bow, so turning to port is what you'd expect the ship to do.

Indeed but it looked like a last minute manoeuvre so I guess he had expected to pass red to red but for some reason the schooner couldn't - I guess the schooner skipper might well have been distracted or he would have done things differently

 

[john_morris_uk]

Basically no action was taken until far too late.
So, you need to ease some sheets to bear away.
Same as any other boat, you shouldn't be setting more sail than you've got adequate crew to manage.

The problem is the basic concept of charging around in a confined, busy area, with a boat load of 'paying guests'.
You need enough crew to manage the boat, and some more to manage the guests.

I wasn't joking. When you're running a big boat with 'guests', it's a serious job keeping them out of danger from the boom, winches, sheets etc. Small boat sailors are often the worst guests, they don't realise the scale of the thing when you let the sheet out on 90ft of boat there is a lot of force and it won't stop because you're in the way. It is industrial machinery.

Indeed but it looked like a last minute manoeuvre so I guess he had expected to pass red to red but for some reason the schooner couldn't - I guess the schooner skipper might well have been distracted or he would have done things differently

Which are all summed up by ‘inadequate preparation and anticipation by the skipper’.

Does this come under MAIB? I will be very interested to read the report if it does. They’re usually comprehensive and well written.

 

[lw395]

Indeed but it looked like a last minute manoeuvre so I guess he had expected to pass red to red but for some reason the schooner couldn't - I guess the schooner skipper might well have been distracted or he would have done things differently

Not AIUI.
The schooner would have had to cross the bows of the ship to get red to red.
Was never going to happen unless things had been done differently 10 minutes previously.
The box boat was following the channel.
The schooner was beating outside the channel?
I think the box boat expected the schooner to remain outside the channel.
If that is the case, the root of the incident is with the schooner's previous tack, which placed it onto a collision course, maybe partly due to a windshift.

 

[oldharry]

Clearly a very different scenario to the one that was first described at the beginning of the thread. Watching the video, I go entirely with John Morris's comments about the behaviour of long keelers. My instinctive reaction in that situation would have been to pout the helm up and bear away, and until i gave it a little more thought realised that putting the helm down to try to get across the box;s track was the correct manouver, but far too late.

Many years ago I was on a long keel gaffer of around 35ft. On a broad reach with the massive mainsail typical of the breed full of wind, but well under control. Another boat was approaching on a 'stand on' course, so our skipper tried to alter course to go round behind him. At the wrong moment a heavy gust caught us. We let fly the main sheet, but the boat simply would not pay off. As we turned down wind, so the drive in the mainsail increased again, and pushed her nose back up, smack into a T bone collision with the other boat. Thankfully both were built like battleships, and incredibly, neither boat suffered serious damage.

I agree with John Morris, the helm down order should have come 2 minutes or so earlier. Maybe with a scratch novice crew the skipper was distracted at the key moment? I cant see why he didnt act sooner. But then I wasnt there.

 

[bedouin]

Interesting... so she didn't 'miss stays' or get 'in irons'....

She just sailed straight under the box boats' bow with a belated attempt to bear away..... putting the helm down and getting her 'in irons' may well have saved the day....

Good to see the master of the box boat took my advice and gave her not one set of 5 blasts... but two sets....

I think you will find it was the schooner giving the box boat 5 - twice.

Had the box boat used a sound signal when putting over the helm then the collision might have been avoided.

 

[Frank Holden]

I think you will find it was the schooner giving the box boat 5 - twice.

Had the box boat used a sound signal when putting over the helm then the collision might have been avoided.[/QUOTEI think you will find that the skipper of the schooner didn't even know the ship was there... what with that gaggle of punters obstructing his view frd...

I doubt the schooner had the ability to make sound signals... and those signals were... how you say... distant...

 

[bedouin]

I think you will find it was the schooner giving the box boat 5 - twice.

Had the box boat used a sound signal when putting over the helm then the collision might have been avoided.[/QUOTEI think you will find that the skipper of the schooner didn't even know the ship was there... what with that gaggle of punters obstructing his view frd...

I doubt the schooner had the ability to make sound signals... and those signals were... how you say... distant...

Why not watch the video rather than guessing - the skipper of the schooner clearly gives the ship 5 twice. You can even see him doing it.

 

[Poignard]

I think you will find it was the schooner giving the box boat 5 - twice.

Had the box boat used a sound signal when putting over the helm then the collision might have been avoided.

I agree.

The 5 blasts imply that the schooner captain assumed his was the stand-on vessel and that he intended to stand on, and wanted to know what the motor vessel's intentions were.

The only circumstances I can think of when the schooner might not be the stand-on vessel would be if the motor vessel was constrained by her draft (can one see any signal shape indicating that?) or if there are some local rules to that effect that we do not yet know about.

 

[Poignard]

I can't help thinking that "continuing to tack up a channel" is not a smart thing to when sharing that channel with not very manoeuvrable commercial vessels that are much bigger than you. It may be my right as a sailing boat, but there are lots of things that I have the right to do, but are capable of having a bad outcome.

During the latter half of the 19th century, and the first few decades of the 20th century, the Elbe and its estuary would have been a mass of vessels of all type: sailing ships, baltic trading ketches, powered coasters, steamships with screws or paddles, ferries, and yachts; all coexisting and coping with the situations they found themselves in. The only differences then would have been that any shipmaster or mate would have had to have served time in sail to qualify for his certificates and would be familiar with the capabilities and limitations of a vessel under sail. Also, there was no VHF.

 

[Dave100456]

The sailing vessel did not make a course change until 40 secs into the video. However, if you study the box ship's angle of presentation at about 30 secs you will progressively see the angular view of its stbd side 'opens', indicating its making a turn to Port.
Whilst its difficult to get an accurate picture my guess would be that the sailing vessel believed he would pass red to red until the box ship turned to port.

 

[lw395]

I agree.

The 5 blasts imply that the schooner captain assumed his was the stand-on vessel and that he intended to stand on, and wanted to know what the motor vessel's intentions were.

The only circumstances I can think of when the schooner might not be the stand-on vessel would be if the motor vessel was constrained by her draft (can one see any signal shape indicating that?) or if there are some local rules to that effect that we do not yet know about.

My guess is that the schooner had not been on that tack for very long and had 'no right' to 'tack into a position of being RoW' boat, to deliberately mix in some RRS terminology.
By the time the video started, the die was pretty much cast, the determining thing will be how they got into that position, plus port rules, VTS direction etc. IRPCAS is all about give way being established as soon as one vessel sights another.

The box boat had no freedom to manoevure except to ram it into reverse or leave the channel.

Perhaps the historic tripper boat market can focus on the Waverley and we're all sorted?

 

[LittleSister]

IRPCAS is all about give way being established as soon as one vessel sights another.

No. As I read it, stand on/give way obligations are (in conditions of visibility) established at the point when two vessels are approaching one another 'so as to involve a risk of collision'.

 

[Frank Holden]

Why not watch the video rather than guessing - the skipper of the schooner clearly gives the ship 5 twice. You can even see him doing it.

I stand corrected.... I was more concerned with watching the bearing of the ship...which is what he should have been doing.

In doing so I failed to notice him amongst that seething mass of humanity.....not unlike rush hour on the Budge Budge ferry....

Rule number one when conning a ship is to maintain spatial awareness..... he appears to have none.

Having been somewhere up frd 'talking to the ladies' he comes scampering aft... observes the ship for a few seconds.... sounds 2x5... and then can be seen pushing the tiller to port to bring her bow to starboard.... so no sign of anyone misunderstanding his helm order....

I don't know the local rules for the Elbe but based on the port rules I do know I doubt very much that the master and pilot on the ship will have their certificates dealt with. The person allegedly in charge of 'Elbe 5' on the other hand.............

 

[oldharry]

I stand corrected.... I was more concerned with watching the bearing of the ship...which is what he should have been doing.

In doing so I failed to notice him amongst that seething mass of humanity.....not unlike rush hour on the Budge Budge ferry....

Rule number one when conning a ship is to maintain spatial awareness..... he appears to have none.

Having been somewhere up frd 'talking to the ladies' he comes scampering aft... observes the ship for a few seconds.... sounds 2x5... and then can be seen pushing the tiller to port to bring her bow to starboard.... so no sign of anyone misunderstanding his helm order....

I don't know the local rules for the Elbe but based on the port rules I do know I doubt very much that the master and pilot on the ship will have their certificates dealt with. The person allegedly in charge of 'Elbe 5' on the other hand.............

I'm inclined to agree with you. Clearly the MV expected Elbe to swing to port, and pass him stbd to stbd, so started a turn to port. Elbes sudden swing to starboard would have taken him completely by surprise. Im not entirely convinced that Elbe couldnt have swung 10 or 15 degrees to port. They might have lost some paint and woodwork maybe even a spar or two, but better than being t-boned? I do wonder if they even heard the double 5 on the MVs bridge, but a couple of blasts from the MV would have made his intentions clear.