Captain Coochie
Well-Known Member
I wasnt blaming the lock keepers at all . But seeing as the EA are in charge of the river who else am i supposed to ask ?
High river flows again....
- Thread starter LimL
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I wasnt blaming the lock keepers at all . But seeing as the EA are in charge of the river who else am i supposed to ask ?
TrueBlue
Well-Known Member
Folks like me
wot live out in the sticks,
that is well outside a town and where the relative silence is only broken by woodpeckers pecking and cows coughing, are a bit closer to nature than most.
I have a long and now large ditch round my house. Up to about 2006 it would flood over my drive once or perhaps twice a year.
This has steadily increased and whereas the overflowing occurred exclusively in the winter, now it can happen at any time of the year.
This winter we've had at least five incidents.
My point is that folks who have good main drainage only notice the heavy rain; the drains conduct the water away and all is well until the next storm.
Here we see the rain and then next morning my newly dug ditch is running like billy-o.
I think the same applies th the River. There are more heavy showers / continuous periods of heavy rain. In the summer it's so heavy that it runs off before the land can absorb it. In the winter the land is saturated and the rain runs off quickly.
So it's not EA or possibly EA's management fault or policy; t'is the weather m'dear that causes it.
Remember that Teddington underscore lock is the last to get the wall of water, so he has to manage the headwater that he has been given.
I used to think it was Policy to flush the flows through quickly, but all the lockies that I have consulted have rubbished that assertion.
Even so every time I've visited the boat this winter the red flag has been flying at my mooring.
One note of criticism is that very little attempt has / is being made to detain the excess waters against future needs. Farmoor reservoir wont draw off water when it's "too turbid", and I suspect that applies further downstream as well.
A plan to build a giant (?) reservoir at Abingdon doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Doubtless there'll be grizzles about No Water next time it stops raining for a month...
wot live out in the sticks,
that is well outside a town and where the relative silence is only broken by woodpeckers pecking and cows coughing, are a bit closer to nature than most.
I have a long and now large ditch round my house. Up to about 2006 it would flood over my drive once or perhaps twice a year.
This has steadily increased and whereas the overflowing occurred exclusively in the winter, now it can happen at any time of the year.
This winter we've had at least five incidents.
My point is that folks who have good main drainage only notice the heavy rain; the drains conduct the water away and all is well until the next storm.
Here we see the rain and then next morning my newly dug ditch is running like billy-o.
I think the same applies th the River. There are more heavy showers / continuous periods of heavy rain. In the summer it's so heavy that it runs off before the land can absorb it. In the winter the land is saturated and the rain runs off quickly.
So it's not EA or possibly EA's management fault or policy; t'is the weather m'dear that causes it.
Remember that Teddington underscore lock is the last to get the wall of water, so he has to manage the headwater that he has been given.
I used to think it was Policy to flush the flows through quickly, but all the lockies that I have consulted have rubbished that assertion.
Even so every time I've visited the boat this winter the red flag has been flying at my mooring.
One note of criticism is that very little attempt has / is being made to detain the excess waters against future needs. Farmoor reservoir wont draw off water when it's "too turbid", and I suspect that applies further downstream as well.
A plan to build a giant (?) reservoir at Abingdon doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Doubtless there'll be grizzles about No Water next time it stops raining for a month...
CX54WEK
Well-Known Member
How high above normal water levels does the thames have to be before the red flags are flown and navigation suspended?
I only ask because last year the Trent and Ouse where running high for most of the season but we still navigated it successfully and safely. The largest flow of "fresh" we encountered was around 13ft. The only real restriction on using the trent for us is if the trent is higher than the Fossdyke, which it wasnt even with 13ft of fresh water. It was pretty close though.
I only ask because last year the Trent and Ouse where running high for most of the season but we still navigated it successfully and safely. The largest flow of "fresh" we encountered was around 13ft. The only real restriction on using the trent for us is if the trent is higher than the Fossdyke, which it wasnt even with 13ft of fresh water. It was pretty close though.
teddington_lock
Well-Known Member
It's not measured in height of water above normal , but rather when a certain number of gates on the weir of each lock site are opened . X number of gates = yellow boards , Y number of gates = red boards.
In an ideal world, the upstream water level will be kept the same throughout.
Navigation isn't 'suspended' as such , rather that the advice the Agency offers is for boats to moor up until the stream dies down.
In an ideal world, the upstream water level will be kept the same throughout.
Navigation isn't 'suspended' as such , rather that the advice the Agency offers is for boats to moor up until the stream dies down.
jecuk
Well-Known Member
Interesting subject, in keeping the water level upstream as close to normal as possible, do you try to get it down as quickly as you can or do the pulling orders essentially slow the rate of decline in river height the closer it gets to normal by closing off gates?
teddington_lock
Well-Known Member
Well , i'm a bit rusty on the way they do it upriver as we do it a little differently at Teddington ....
In theory though , say if your target level was 6 above , when you see it rising ( either via observation on the gauge or on the trend monitor , which is extremely useful ) you would go and pull out a gate on the weir , which would drop the level back to the target level and would obviously increase the flow through the weir , drawing more water through quicker as it were.
As everyone does a weir move , they will phone the next lock down and tell them what they ( and others ) have done , so the lock staff can build up a picture of what is going on in the upper reaches of the river ....
Then once the peak flow has passed , as you notice it begin to drop out of target levels , you would go and shut in ...
I should just clarify though that it is a good number of years since i have worked on any upriver weir , several new ones have been built since then.
Basically though , it is spotting the trend , whether rising or falling and using your experience to react to it as necessary.
In theory though , say if your target level was 6 above , when you see it rising ( either via observation on the gauge or on the trend monitor , which is extremely useful ) you would go and pull out a gate on the weir , which would drop the level back to the target level and would obviously increase the flow through the weir , drawing more water through quicker as it were.
As everyone does a weir move , they will phone the next lock down and tell them what they ( and others ) have done , so the lock staff can build up a picture of what is going on in the upper reaches of the river ....
Then once the peak flow has passed , as you notice it begin to drop out of target levels , you would go and shut in ...
I should just clarify though that it is a good number of years since i have worked on any upriver weir , several new ones have been built since then.
Basically though , it is spotting the trend , whether rising or falling and using your experience to react to it as necessary.
jecuk
Well-Known Member
I assume you can operate more freely at Teddington as you don't have to worry about the impact of what you do on a lower lock or are there other considerations?
teddington_lock
Well-Known Member
At Teddington , our headwater can vary by up to 12 inches. We have our own pulling order , it is divided into seven sections.
As you go up a section , the headwater is required to sit lower , so for an example , in section 1 the headwater level is 6 above . However , once you start getting up into the higher sections , it gets lower , so as another example once you are in section 4 ( where red boards are triggered ) the headwater should be between 2 and 4 above.
This is primarily to give us some leeway to take the 'edge' off the incoming tide as it were , it gives us a buffer zone which helps protect the residential islands on the reach above ( Trowlock and Thames Ditton ) which AFAIK are the lowest point . When the incoming tide meets the landwater ( at Teddington ) we have X amount of inches as a buffer , which spread over the 5 mile reach above us , helps no end.
It also increases the 'slope' slightly , which helps clear water quicker , as we have two tributaries that feed in on our reach which can have quite an impact . As well as what comes through Molesey , we have to consider the Mole and the Hogsmill.
As you go up a section , the headwater is required to sit lower , so for an example , in section 1 the headwater level is 6 above . However , once you start getting up into the higher sections , it gets lower , so as another example once you are in section 4 ( where red boards are triggered ) the headwater should be between 2 and 4 above.
This is primarily to give us some leeway to take the 'edge' off the incoming tide as it were , it gives us a buffer zone which helps protect the residential islands on the reach above ( Trowlock and Thames Ditton ) which AFAIK are the lowest point . When the incoming tide meets the landwater ( at Teddington ) we have X amount of inches as a buffer , which spread over the 5 mile reach above us , helps no end.
It also increases the 'slope' slightly , which helps clear water quicker , as we have two tributaries that feed in on our reach which can have quite an impact . As well as what comes through Molesey , we have to consider the Mole and the Hogsmill.
pande
Well-Known Member
Well I don't care whether it is the lockies or done mechenically (sp?) but the water levels here have been fantastic this year - the only time the water came up to the steps was after the snow in January (and we were away at the time 
) I think that whoever or whatever did the job admirably. Hopefully they will continue over this weekend and we won't have to execute "plan B"
) I think that whoever or whatever did the job admirably. Hopefully they will continue over this weekend and we won't have to execute "plan B"
Brayman
Well-Known Member
You're fortunate on that reach for a number of reasons I reckon. Whether it's anything to do with the "grand plan", Nigel at Marsh, Peter at Hambledon or the boys in Reading I don't know but it always seems to be the "calmest" reach.
Sometime
Well-Known Member
Hi All
I new to boating and this forum.
I did intend to use my boat tomorrow, what are the implications of the high river flows?
Would you advise that as a novice I don't even try to go out in these conditions?
Many thanks
I new to boating and this forum.
I did intend to use my boat tomorrow, what are the implications of the high river flows?
Would you advise that as a novice I don't even try to go out in these conditions?
Many thanks
TrueBlue
Well-Known Member
1). Lots of brown muddy water rushing downstream making navigation difficult and there may be lumps of wood to damage your gelcoat.
2). Yes, stay at home / pub and keep warm. It's bound to rain
Read what our Lords and Masters (EA) have to say on the subject:- clicky here
If your boat is in the region of your "location" the the above says the river is on Red, so even an experienced and seasoned boater would stay away.
Wait until the river is on normal flow and the sun is shining and then take your time to learn how everything works.
Remember to smile and wave at everybody as you progress, taking particular care to bow low to all Forum members displaying the forum burgee - it's a mouse tippling champagne on a blue background, and all will be well.
Welcome if you are aserious member and boater. If not, be very afraid...
ianc1200
Well-Known Member
But don't wave at the narrowboats......
No Regrets
Well-Known Member
Hi Whisper,
Welcome etc etc...
We used our first boat, a 9.9hp Shetland 570 on reds just for a laugh, but engine issues and no anchor made this really stupid in hindsight.
The subsequent 160hp Scarani sportcruiser would have had (and we tried it!!) no issues power-wise against anything this side of an epic tidal wave, but seriously, one chunk of wood in the prop would have seen us hanging onto an anchor chain!
Why would anybody want to go out on reds though? Boating is supposed to be nice and chilled.....
The nice forum bods only ever give good advice
Welcome etc etc...
We used our first boat, a 9.9hp Shetland 570 on reds just for a laugh, but engine issues and no anchor made this really stupid in hindsight.
The subsequent 160hp Scarani sportcruiser would have had (and we tried it!!) no issues power-wise against anything this side of an epic tidal wave, but seriously, one chunk of wood in the prop would have seen us hanging onto an anchor chain!
Why would anybody want to go out on reds though? Boating is supposed to be nice and chilled.....
The nice forum bods only ever give good advice
oldgit
Well-Known Member
Hello and welcome.
Hi,and welcome to the forum.Hope to hear from you lots over the coming months,doubt you will find many experienced boaters out there when Reds on display,simply not worth the possible trouble.
Fast flows are really no problem when you have the space ie. in tidal bits when the river is half a mile wide and it will probably take you 5 mins to hit the bank and/or muddy bottom.
Upstream it could all go wrong in seconds and the props will lose their blades before you hit actual terra firma
Would doubt that many of "toy" anchors carried on many craft would bite soon enough( if at all )on the bed of the Thames to prevent engineless boat being carried away,the anchor merely bouncing happily over the rocky bottom.
A sudden bite on the other hand could relieve you of your anchor plus whatever secures it to your boat.
~Again not worth the trouble
Hi,and welcome to the forum.Hope to hear from you lots over the coming months,doubt you will find many experienced boaters out there when Reds on display,simply not worth the possible trouble.
Fast flows are really no problem when you have the space ie. in tidal bits when the river is half a mile wide and it will probably take you 5 mins to hit the bank and/or muddy bottom.
Upstream it could all go wrong in seconds and the props will lose their blades before you hit actual terra firma
Would doubt that many of "toy" anchors carried on many craft would bite soon enough( if at all )on the bed of the Thames to prevent engineless boat being carried away,the anchor merely bouncing happily over the rocky bottom.
A sudden bite on the other hand could relieve you of your anchor plus whatever secures it to your boat.
~Again not worth the trouble
jecuk
Well-Known Member
No-one here should offer you advice but the idea that going out on reds is just not done is silly. Depends on the boat. Two engines and a heavy boat you can cope fine in most red boards situations.
As for No Regrets: "Why would anybody want to go out on reds though? Boating is supposed to be nice and chilled....."
It can be chilled, just depends on the boat. Weirs are your problem not the locks. The flow itself is not a big deal.
I think like most situations in life, assess the conditions versus your own experience level and the equipment on your boat and make your own call. If you are asking on a forum as your first post, prob not a good idea to go out.
As for No Regrets: "Why would anybody want to go out on reds though? Boating is supposed to be nice and chilled....."
It can be chilled, just depends on the boat. Weirs are your problem not the locks. The flow itself is not a big deal.
I think like most situations in life, assess the conditions versus your own experience level and the equipment on your boat and make your own call. If you are asking on a forum as your first post, prob not a good idea to go out.
Captain Coochie
Well-Known Member
Ive been rowing across and using an electric outboard to ferry glide .
The speed of the river doesnt bother me its just the fact that 1" can mean i cant get to my boat .
Ill probably just drop off my mooring and diddle about abit over the weekend rather than plan a trip but then again i did learn boating on the tidal Thames so fast flow was what it was .
Been at Tower bridge with tide going out and the 25HP outboard on an 18ft boat did very little but still made headway
Ok we all mess up at some point I blame the PLA for moving me on from a rubbish barge when the tide was going out at 4 AM !
What you do is up to you but ill be out on my boat this weekend even if i have to swim across !
PS this lot are a bit old and only go out in perfect conditions with electric and televisions and rubbish like that . They need internet on the boat and all that **** .
The speed of the river doesnt bother me its just the fact that 1" can mean i cant get to my boat .
Ill probably just drop off my mooring and diddle about abit over the weekend rather than plan a trip but then again i did learn boating on the tidal Thames so fast flow was what it was .
Been at Tower bridge with tide going out and the 25HP outboard on an 18ft boat did very little but still made headway
Ok we all mess up at some point I blame the PLA for moving me on from a rubbish barge when the tide was going out at 4 AM !What you do is up to you but ill be out on my boat this weekend even if i have to swim across !
PS this lot are a bit old and only go out in perfect conditions with electric and televisions and rubbish like that . They need internet on the boat and all that **** .
Sometime
Well-Known Member
Many thanks for all the great replies, I can see this forum becoming my new best friend in the coming months when seeking advice.
I am going on the boat handling course in a few weeks and am really looking forward to it.
Just one thing, why don't we wave at the narrow boats???
I am going on the boat handling course in a few weeks and am really looking forward to it.
Just one thing, why don't we wave at the narrow boats???
Captain Coochie
Well-Known Member
They are kidding about the narrow boat thing . Some get the hump because they get a cheaper deal just visiting the Thames and taking up all the mooring space but thats life .
What boat have you got ?
What boat have you got ?
Sometime
Well-Known Member
Ah, makes sense
My boat is a Seamaster 23.
My boat is a Seamaster 23.