HF/VHF v Satelite

Your original post:

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"Conclusion: Emergency HF radio frequencies, like 2182 MHz, no longer exist in most of the world. NO ONE IS LISTENING'''''''"

Changed your mind about satcom with all the SSB questions?

Oh and you really will need a licence for a big black beasty and we all know your views on that subject!

Ian
 
Thanks Jon

I have not changed anything least of all my mind.
My thinking is that my wife would like a means of communicating I am only trying to find the most cost effective means of doing it. Like I said the epirb would do for me.
I will be sailing on long high sea passages and was thinking of buying a practor modem with ssb or satfone.

I was quoting a report of someone who was in that siuation they are not my words.
 
Replies have already pointed out that HF comms is likely to be little assisatnce in the situation you describe - HF is either line of sight propagation (like VHF) or it relies on bounce, and this can mean that there is a poor area immediately after line of sight finishes. So the time HF is likely to give benefit not available by VHF is when you dont need urgent physical help.

Sat comms will work at all distances provided that local interference etc doesnt blanket the relatively weak signal.

So it seems to me that for chat, weather etc HF ham radio is effective and cheap. For emergency - VHF anf sat are more effective. The one I find difficult to see real use/value in is pukka marine SSB
 
A tad miss leading really.

HF at the emergency freq's is far from line of sight.
It is long distance via bounce, skip etc.

HF is only really line of site at the CB end of the spectrum.

If you were to go the whole hog of HF/SSB with DSC you stand a very good chance of being heard.

Standard Mayday via voice on HF is unlikely to get you help.

Commercial shipping carries HF with DSC.
Coast guards world wide should have DSC set up.

Sat has lots of pro's and con's as does HF.
I think it is really horses for courses.
One or the other will suit an individaul or a combination of both.

Regards
 
Re: HF/VHF v Satellite

.......... Standard Mayday via voice on HF is unlikely to get you help...........

I think Jon is absolutely right about that and it has been true for a long time. You are far more likely to get a response to a medical or mayday situation by voice by calling Falmouth CC on your Sat phone.

VHF can alert ships in range - and whatever the new DSC rules are they nearly all monitor 16 all the time and use it.

SSB is really pretty outdated - except for cruising yachts keeping in touch with each other. This can be really useful as there are often Doctors on the net and the hams on the net will get in touch with shore based facilities for you. If other cruising boats are around they can help.

Not sure that DSC for SSB is really worth while when if you have that sort of money a satellite phone has more uses.

I really enjoy the nets and feeling of camaraderie that exists with the use of an SSB but for safety I think a sat call to Falmouth and letting off the Epirb are probably the best way...
 
Re: HF/VHF v Satellite

[ QUOTE ]

VHF can alert ships in range - and whatever the new DSC rules are they nearly all monitor 16 all the time and use it.

SSB is really pretty outdated - except for cruising yachts keeping in touch with each other. This can be really useful as there are often Doctors on the net and the hams on the net will get in touch with shore based facilities for you. If other cruising boats are around they can help.

Not sure that DSC for SSB is really worth while when if you have that sort of money a satellite phone has more uses.

I really enjoy the nets and feeling of camaraderie that exists with the use of an SSB but for safety I think a sat call to Falmouth and letting off the Epirb are probably the best way...

[/ QUOTE ]

With all you have just said SSB is far from dated!
It is far cheaper for mail than sat.
Calls are free after the initial cost of the kit.

I think most that blue water sail find the nets a great way to keep up the moral.

You can only call one person via sat.

If you do a DSC call via SSB every ship in range gets the call as do the coast guard.

Help is already on stand by.

All the a side, the times that you need you kit in an emergency will hopefully be very few if not never.
There for the joy's of the nets, free weather info and cost effective e-mail must be a huge selling feature and benift for SSB over sat?

If it were me I would carry a 406 EPIRB with GPS and SSB.

And maybe a mobile phone specially modified by the DR!!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards
 
Re: HF/VHF v Satellite

the rules are such that they have to monitor ch16 at the mo.
there has been nothing issued for commercial shipping or the coast guard to stop monitoring ch 16.

Regards
 
Re: HF/VHF v Satellite

When you go cruising you are on a fixed income unless you find work which I dont want to do. The fixed initial cost of the ssb with a practor modem with little outlay every month might be the best bet. One is not tempted on a drunken night in a beautifull mooring to phone every relative you have in the world just to brag.
A kind of brag now pay later scheme.
 
Re: HF/VHF v Satellite

Really do not want to put you out of business - the middle part of my post said -

............SSB is really pretty outdated - except for cruising yachts keeping in touch with each other. This can be really useful as there are often Doctors on the net and the hams on the net will get in touch with shore based facilities for you. If other cruising boats are around they can help.................

For Blue Water Cruising I think SSB is almost essential - in the same way that VHF is almost essential. When the problems get serious it is almost certainly the other cruisers that will help you - however:-

Sailmail is fine - used it a lot but the modem is expensive - the $250 a year subs are a fair bit and if you have a satellite phone then the amount of emails is limited only by your budget...

As you know most merchant-military ships use satellite coms for almost all long distance communications. Maybe British registered ship are required to monitor SSB DSC - but are all ships? very much doubt it -

as I have said before ships masters are paid to get the cargo delivered asap and not to go running around looking for people to rescue - The idea of the 'fellowship' of the sea is overly romantic. So why go for very expensive DSC when a sat phone to Falmouth CC will have the same effect?

Having said that I would not go off shore - ocean sailing without an SSB but in European waters - Med it is pretty useless - I think!
 
Re: HF/VHF v Satellite

I have spent many a happy hour uselessly tuning my ssb in the med while trying to pick up the BBC. Gives me an excuse to hide from the sun.
 
My thinking is that my wife would like a means of communicating

If that is what you are seeking, and not for safety alerting purposes (or ham or marine net chats) then sat phone is the only way to go if outside cellular telephone coverage.

Only problem is the cost if you want to chat for long - but that is not a problem if one is well heeled money wise.

John
 
Standard Mayday via voice on HF is unlikely to get you help.

I think Lyngby Radio (at their Lyngby site) maintains the GMDSS MF/HF regional watch for Europe (I am not sure if that is the correct RCC) in which case do they not maintain a telephony watch on the telephony safety frequencies - if they do not that would be unusual I would have thought.

USCG maintain HF (4125kHz upwards) telephony watches in their latest schedules and I know for sure that RCC Bermuda does too, so between them the North and tropic Atlantic is covered even in the unlikely event of there being no official telephony watch anywhere in Europe. The whole of the Pacific/north/SE Asia is covered as is the South Atlantic. Don't know about the Indian Ocean, but would be most surprised if it was not.

All with the admitted proviso that propagation blackouts (or lesser propagation difficulties) can occur so I am not claiming that HF is ultimately reliable either for telephony or DSC. Also, most small boat stations are of very poor ability due to poor installation and knowledge - I am only relating to a competent boat station capable of working HF worldwide from where ever it is situated.

I know you don't Jon but it seems to me that many seem to think that unless the HF radio station is in their own backyard then there is no service. For example here in NZ should ZLM Taupo (which covers much of the South Pacific) be down for any unforseen reason I would still consider myself covered by Australia (at least).

Are you saying that there is no HF telephony safety watch maintained by any official station whatsoever (eg Lyngby) to to cover the Europe region?

John
 
Re: HF/VHF v Satellite

As we seem to be getting on better I thought I would just add that the problem for SSB in the European waters is that there are simpler ways of getting weather and keeping in touch and no useful nets -

The Bill and Bruce show aka UK maritime mobile on 14303 @08.00+18.00utc had stopped doing the weather last time I listened and had become a small club... the eastern med net is a pretty boring affair of check ins and that's it.

Each year the boats come out of Suez all with SSB's running on the Indian ocean/red sea nets. They carry on the nets for a while but nobody wants to be net controller - I stopped the moment I got out of Suez - and because of the relatively safe waters - proliferation of harbours and marinas and no passages more than 24 hours without the option of finding a harbour there is no real reason to stay in touch on a daily basis.

SSB up here comes into its own on the Atlantic circuit and across the Pacific & Indian ocean - up here everyone uses cell phones - and why not...

Re safety coverage I am pretty sure Falmouth and other CC stations monitor 2182 on loud speakers but it is probably easier/quicker to bell them!
 
Re: HF/VHF v Satellite

I entirely agree. With modern comms, HF radio is more for fun than serious communication. An exception is probably for weather fax and RTTY but you only need a cheap receiver for that. So unless you are a sad anorak like me and enjoy playing with radios as an end in itself, I would suggest satellite is the way to go.

If you have some kind of mid-ocean emergency, the ham networks would just love to swing into action to save you. They will go into paroxysms of joy as they establish relays and activate emergency procedures. But a phone call is simpler!

I most certainly would not rely on 2182 in a crisis.
 
Re: HF/VHF v Satellite

To digress a little and although I was a signaler in the Army and studied coms I have forgotten most of it. What are the chances of my talking to someone say in England or South Africa from the Red Sea. Will I or they need a massive set up like we had in the Army. Would it be possible with say two mid range Icoms or yaesu's.
I know I should dig out my books but thought someone might know off the top of their heads.
 
Re: HF/VHF v Satellite

If you read an earlier post of mine I state that I can work from my boat here in New Zealand, on HF, amateurs in UK who are operating from their cars and is easy working those with home stations. That with an ordinary marine radio (Icom IC-M802) but the stations at both end need to be well set up. It is common from here for an amateur to maintain contact with another amateur on a yacht for a complete circumnavigation.

As Michael has said, however, the various nets are generally pretty tedious to listen to or get involved in, but radio is fine (marine, and amateur too if hold an amateur licence) if you have friends with the same.

But again, if all one wants to do is phone home, then a phone is made for the job and is best by far - either cellular if in coverage or satellite (although running cost is expensive).

John
 
Re: HF/VHF v Satellite

I think I will get my brother to buy a set in SA we can then form our own net with only 2 admittedly however I dont really want to talk to anyone else. I think it might satisfy my wife will have to run it by her.
Thank you for your help.
 
Re: HF/VHF v Satellite

There is a whole slice of the ham world devoted to (QRP) low power communications. With a 3W system you can UNDER THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES talk to pretty much anyone in the world. Many people think its fun to communicate with milli watts of power. Most marine sets deliver 100W and most boats have pretty good antenna systems. The crunch of course is the right circumstances bit, paths will open to particular places at particular times. It is absolutely not like picking up a phone. But that is where the challenge and therefore the fun lies.
 
Don't know why, but no-one seems to have mentioned Globalstar. Looks like a cheaper option for a sat phone: Euro 30 per month plus Eur 0.7 per min. Plus the data is quicker than Iridium. Yes, there's a "3 day" hole mid Atlantic but Mini M also has a hole there. Are there any other downsides?
 
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