Help with Heeling over

[robp]

if it was white with the words bullit written down the side in lime green, in plymouth sound then that would have been my fault

We were turning left at the time, down the Alderney Race with a SW 4/5. So the whole thing was lively as you can imagine. Not Bulllit sorry..

 

[misterg]

...we both seem to get nervous when she starts to heel beyond our comfort zone...

Tiller steering?

Daft question: Are you both sitting down when this happens?

If so, I would hazard a guess that it feels like you're sitting in a 'safe little box' that some giant hand is trying to tip you out of? Your instinct is to cling to the box and press yourself into it? If this rings any bells, can I suggest that (as an exercise) you try to stand up and 'ride' the boat more, standing on whatever is nearest horizontal at the time. I've found that this detaches me from the 'heeling sensation', and is something you do naturally on a wheel-steered boat.

Maybe stick the boat on autopilot and deliberately oversheet the main for a while to get some heel. Walk about the windward deck (lifelines, yadda yadda) - anything to get some confidence.

Logically you know that the wind can't tip the boat over - you just need confidence to deal with the excessive heel when you encounter it.

Make sure everything is well stowed below, though - there's nothing like the sound of heavy things falling onto shiny things to put you off.

0.02p

Andy

 

[ianat182]

Help with heeling over.....

Looking at your photographs your boat resembles a Leisure 26/27,and which I sailed some years ago. If so, I agree that she sails at a angle of heel that is quite off-putting at first,until she 'locks' at that angle.
She felt very racy and we managed to reduce the heel, before reefing ,by letting the mainsheet traveller out further on the track, whilst keeping the sail at the tension we required;it was a revelation, almost like a sailing dinghy in response and we sailed her more often like this. The boom was never pulled in so far that it was on the centre line, but sheeted as it was intended,then the traveller released about 9" from the centre position.
We eventually did reef the main only, but kept the traveller offset. The jib was not furled until after a second reef required less sail, and she was light on the tiller after each reef.
A nice boat,but could have done with more light below deck.
I sail several boats and usually leave the jib unreefed, or furled, until 2 reefs have been put in,on the basis that the jib is the pointing and real working sail; mind you, a genoa would be taken in or furled earlier then!

ianat182

 

[WindermereColvic]

Apologise for a slight thread-jacking, but is there a way to find out/look up a yachts AVS? Ive got to try and persuade my crew that out bilge keep colvic countess 28 wont go over, especialy since they're mostly dingy sailors. Its easy enough to imagin how a fin keel can provide suficient righting moment, but its less intuative for bilge. It would be nice to be able to say catagoricly that, if broched to haveing say the spreaders in the water (not intentialy, and probably not on Windermere, but it would make a good illustration) we were sure to come round the right way again.
I must admit i have had that horible moment on a W Centure when you think you might have pushed it too far and you hold your breath until the wind spills and you come back up again.
Matt

 

[Rivers & creeks]

As has been said, heeling is normal, it's part of the feedback the boat gives you. BUT - don't dismiss the cat option; my wife and children never got the whole heeling thing, after hundreds of hours and thousands of miles it was never natural for them. So we sold the boat, bought a cat and now I get complaints should I dare to suggest a reef! There really is nothing like sailing at 8 knots without roll or heel. Sure there's more pitching in short seas, some marina's charge more, though most don't. You have to pay a lot more to buy the boat, but you get twice as much space. Cat's are just another option but very very few people buy a cat then change to a monohull. And just like cruising monohulls, no cruising cat has ever been capsized by wind force, though plenty of racing monohulls and plenty of racing cats have gone over.

You may become comfortable with the heeling eventually, but why wait?

 

[Twister_Ken]

"Oh by the way she's a Verl 900."

Wasn't that the boat that was described by one of the magz as a 'best kept secret'. Apparently solid performers and well fitted out if you get a pro-build one.

 

[Lakesailor]

Here is a Sonata attempting to do what you fear. It doesn't happen though. It just pops up like a cork. I have seen a video of this, but can't find it now.

 

[aquaholic]

Have been looking at some videos and reading the advice given and cant wait for a windy day now!
Here is a good one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQIrMSI9YBo&feature=related

 

[Adonnante]

[And just like cruising monohulls, no cruising cat has ever been capsized by wind force, though plenty of racing monohulls and plenty of racing cats have gone over.

Yes they have, the difference being that a monohull with a keel will recover once the sails are released (providing the hatches are shut to stop flooding) where a multihull will not recover from a similar knockdown. A reefing schedule is desirable in a cat where mono sailors can afford to lay on there side and sail sideways.

Peter.

 

[johnalison]

If you get nervous when the boat starts heeling you should live to a ripe old age, but maybe miss out on some fun on the way. I can't remember where I read it, but yonks ago I read about someone with a nervous wife/girlfriend/child who left one of those wooden doll things around the house which have a rounded bottom with a weight in it and can wobble around and always return to upright. Over a period of time this did the trick as the nervous party absorbed the laws of physics subliminally.

 

[Lakesailor]

Apologise for a slight thread-jacking, but is there a way to find out/look up a yachts AVS? Ive got to try and persuade my crew that out bilge keep colvic countess 28 wont go over,
Matt

I have a theory about bilge keelers. Thankfully for all those who want proof there is an American yacht designer who I found has the same theory.
If your keels are slightly splayed the heeling actually puts the leeward keel in a more vertical (and more efficient) position and the windward keel is held out as a counterbalance much more effectively than a fin keel.
On all yachts not only does the angle of the rig when heeling spill the wind, but the centre of effort is lowered as the area of sail presented to the wind reduces and the larger part of the sail is nearer the water, thus having less leverage to effect further heeling. The only downside is the larger (temporary) freeboard the hull presents.
The downside seems to be that the geometry underwater changes as the leeward keel becomes the main foil and the rudder seems more likely to stall (I speak of less racy designs, which bilge keelers tend to be).

Just my thoughts.

 

[photodog]

That is a very nice looking boat...



Funnily the numbers are not too far from my Bav 31.... though we have a slightly deeper keel with a bulb....

Your Verl has quite high freeboard, and a narrowish beam (By todays standards... ) So you are relying less on form stability than a modern yacht, so the boat will heel more, and tend to settle into a groove and probably trak quite nicely upwind... The high freeboard tends to exacerbate the feeling of heeling.. so while she will probably heel around the same as a Contessa 32 or She 31.... it will feel a lot more!

However this lower reliance on form stability, and higher freeboard, means a very high AVS... I bet she has a AVS or no less than 130' , which is pretty damn good by todays standards!

By comparison our boat, which has very simular numbers, has a AVS of 130'.

What that means.. is that this is probably a VERY safe boat.

Much safer I would propose from a capsize and stability POV than a modern AWB of simular size.

So, I wouldnt worry about the heeling over!

I would experiment a bit more with reducing Main or Genoa to reduce heeling, ie reef a bit earlier.... and see what the speed up wind is....

But try some variety... I have been farfing around with less main recently and have found that I can get better speed upwind with less heel under a lot of circumstances with a extra reef in...

So, when the wind is up.... ref a bit earlier.... but experiment a bit and try some different combos....

OTOH this boat will heel more than a modern boat... so you need to get a feel for what level of heel/sail will produce max VMG..... But that heeling can also be good fun when you get some confidence.

Remeber you need a BREAKING wave of around 3-4 meters to hit her on the side to invert her... she will not capsize from wind.

Even if she goes FLAT on her beam..... ie 90' she will pop straight back up... but in fact will lose grip in the ruder and round up before she does that....

That AVS of say 130' meand that she has to go over 130' before she will full capsize.... any less than that and she will pop straight back up.... BUT she CANNOT do that with wind alone.

Thats a great looking very safe yacht! Well chosen I would say!

 

[aquaholic]

Thanks very much for your reply, it has inspired confidence!

 

[kingfisher]

1) I use the heel as an indicator to reef: once the wooden toerail gets wet, I reef. And this is with a 3 ton boat with 1.2 tons of keel.

2) respond to wind gusts: release the mainsail, but much better, point the boat higher with each gust. After a while you'll learn to point the boat higher before the gust comes in/affects your boat. So a lot has to do with experience. Most inexperienced sailors will jigsaw a boat: flat/absurd heel/flat/absurd heel. It kills your back as an instructor, I can tell you. So settle on an angel of heel (the natural angle of your boat) and try to keep that angel by changing the sheet tension (if you are going on a fixed course) or by pointing higher/lower (if you are going upwind)

3) in a lot of wind, or to gain experience, do not take the traveller to the middle of the boat. You'll find that changing the angle of the sails anly a few degrees will change the angle of heel dramatically.

4) It is only in a few exceptional cases that extreme crazy heel will give you a benefit (short races+flat seas+medium+steady winds).
Short: long distances on extreme heel wear out the crew and the boat
Races: if you're cruising, why do it uncomfortably
Flat seas: in waves you need to bear off a bit, to gain accelaration
Light winds: won't give you heel (you actually need to induce a bit of heel in light winds)
Hard winds: reef early
Steady winds: again, in gusty winds, you need to react and sometimes spill wind.

And even then, your VMG (velocity made good) will usually be better a few degrees lower than extreme pointing race.

Only stupid people like being uncomfortable.

 

[Marsupial]

You have a very stable boat. It wont turn over but will round up into the wind. Rounding up or broaching is something I try to arrange when I am buying a boat, get the owner or the agent to demonstrate what happens when its overpowered. The experience is at first a bit hair raising but I does let you know quickly how the boat behaves and the confidence it gives is massive. So far I have only found one boat that scared me and it was a home build where the builder had altered the plans. . . . . .

Ask someone to take you out and deliberately over sail it so it rounds up.

 

[westernman]

no cruising cat has ever been capsized by wind force

Yes they have. An Outremer 45 capsized down our way with the loss of four lives (off Cabo de Creus). Also there was a brand new cruising catamaran which capsized on its delivery voyage across the atlantic a few years back.

Cabo de Creus can be interesting - one time we where coming back up N past it we had a F7 and a fairly bumpy sea (I had sent everyone below to put on lifejackets and to clip on if they wanted to be up in the cockput). 5 minutes later, we were in a dead flat mirror calm and had to start the engine.

Now what happens to a catamaran coming the other way on auto pilot, with the skipper making tea?

 

[Fire99]

As a matter of interest to the OP, I did the same 'experiment' today with my recently acquired Snappie as we did on the Training Bavaria.

Winds picked up today and I kept her fully sailed and she heeled a fair way over then requiring progressively more counter-steering to pull her away from the wind. Eventually she heeled no further and I ran out of rudder and gradually pulled herself to windward and then stopped.

OK not a masterclass in sailing and obviously for better speed etc I should of run a smaller headsail and reefed the mainsail but it's reassuring to know how the boat behaves in that situation.

 

[Lakesailor]

"Tiller under the chin" used to be the outcome on a bilge keeler I had. The rudder would then stall and it would round up. Not very satisfactory really.
The Foxcub fin keel I had was much more hardy and would heel over to a certain degree. It wouldn't go much further, even in gusts, and the rudder didn't stall either. In fact it was a very stiff boat. Bennie 211s would be on their beam ends when I was still comfortable.
When sailing on a lake reefing is a last resort as the wind shifts and gusting mean that in 10 minutes you're likely to be becalmed after an enthusiastic sail anyway.

It's the difference between going touring in your car and going out for a blast.

 

[Neil]

This is my first season sailing, and I'm using a long ballasted keel open day boat. I'm slowly getting more confidence with the heeling thing - I was out in Carlingford lough in a F6 gusting to F8 (so I discovered later!). I had the main fully reefed, and the gib half-furled, but was still steering into the wind or spilling the main - it gave me some confidence to come through it unscathed. However, last weekend, I took Herself, female friend and 4 children under 5, on the boat. The forecast was for F3, but I reefed at the outset just in case (and cursed silently on the outward leg, 'cos it wasn't needed). However, on the way back, there were several occasions that went from light winds to huge gusts coming out of nowhere. The boat kept going over - not dangerously so, but the suddenness of it, going from almost upright to an extreme heel was frightening to the passengers, and not just the children!. I suppose there's not much you can do in those situations but grip the sheet between your teeth (metaphorically speaking!) and think of the harbour!

 

[joe17]

In terms of control, you can reduce the amount of heel very quickly by dumping the main sheet. Once you realise that you can control the amount of heel, I suspect that it won't be so intimidating. Try sailing along close hauled alternately cranking on and then easing the mainsheet (maybe this as part of the exercise above). You'll see that you are in control. And when a gust hits, you can ease the main, or (once you gain some confidence) go with it - hold your breath for 10 seconds and you will see the boat will heel to the gust by a few degrees and then not go any farther.

I had this fear. Learning to dump the main showed how to control it. Now I really dont notice heeling until the boat starts rounding up.

As explained above - your boat wont go over because of the wind. So long as it keeps its keel then it is more likely to be a breaking wave.

These days I spent most of time worrying about the mast coming down.