Help with Heeling over

[aquaholic]

My wife and I have been sailing for just over a year now after many years playing with motorboats and have both fallen in love with it, we have managed just over 1100 miles so far and been across the channel a couple of times, however we both seem to get nervous when she starts to heel beyond our comfort zone and cant help feeling that she's going over. its been explained many times by friends and an instructor that she wont go over that easily but still dont to be able to escape the fear, we sail nearly everywhere with a reef in just in case and look on in jealously as boats sail past with their rails in the water. Have included a few photos of our boat and any advice would be a great help, maybe we just need more experience.....or I need a to buy a catamaran cos i am a big girly woos

 

[boatmike]

My wife and I have been sailing for just over a year now after many years playing with motorboats and have both fallen in love with it, we have managed just over 1100 miles so far and been across the channel a couple of times, however we both seem to get nervous when she starts to heel beyond our comfort zone and cant help feeling that she's going over. its been explained many times by friends and an instructor that she wont go over that easily but still dont to be able to escape the fear, we sail nearly everywhere with a reef in just in case and look on in jealously as boats sail past with their rails in the water. Have included a few photos of our boat and any advice would be a great help, maybe we just need more experience.....or I need a to buy a catamaran cos i am a big girly woos

Well I have a cat and I am not a big girly woos as I actually miss rails under heavy beating to windward sometimes. What you describe is perfectly natural at first and we probably all remember the feeling if we are honest. The cure is to go for it. If your boat is well setup you will find too much sail just results in her weathercocking up to windward and you won't be able to keep her on the wind. Once you realise that this happens and she won't go over you will develop an instinct for when to reef. It's the wrong reason to buy a cat though. You need that instinct with a cat even more as too much sail on some cats can be far more dangerous than sailing a mono...

 

[Twister_Ken]

Reef earlier. Most boats go faster and make less leeway when sailed more upright, it's just a bit of a macho thing to want green water on the side decks. In the meantime, buy one of those wibbly-wobbly toys to help yourselves understand why she won't capsize.

Nice looking boat by the way.

 

[Nautorius]

Perfectly Normal and some people never get over the feeling. My SWMBO was petrified and in the end we had to sell the boat. The only way I ever got here comfortable was to Pay out the main so that we spilled more air. It did not damage performance as much as having a permanent Reef on though. I also reduced the size of the Genoa that helped.

In the end we decided that a 24ft sail boat was too small as we ended up motoring in anything more than 10knotts of wind!

Good luck

Paul

 

[Fire99]

When I did my first sailing course a couple of years ago (after owning motorboats for about 10 years) we had the boat heeled right over.

Considering almost all of us onboard were firemen (who are not known for being easily unnerved), there were still a few interesting facial expressions the first time it happened so I can understand your concern.

However, we put it to the test. I was at the helm, and we had the boat heeled over with the guardrail in the water, the crew hanging off the otherside and I was literally standing on the side of the cockpit floor due to the angle.

All that happened was that i was having to put more and more steering angle to counteract the boat pulling to windward. In the end I was on 'full lock' and the boat just pulled it's nose into the wind and we abruptly stopped.

Obviously in normal sailing situations we should of reefed the sails in for better progress but it was an interesting experiment (for those that are willing) to show that the boat didn't pull itself onto its side just from being over-sailed.

 

[bedouin]

As Ken so wisely says - having the lee rail under may look macho but it is rarely fast, or good seamanship. There is no shame putting a reef in early. Now I sail with two young children aboard I tend to carry less sail than I used to. I might not get from A to B quite as fast as I used to, but I get there with a lot less healing

The other side to the equation is confidence - no amount of being told that boats don't capsize is enough to convince you the first time you find yourself with water coming in over the cockpit coamings - but once you've been there a few times you get less concerned about it.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

I suspect that the main reason this happens is beacuse people start sailing with some very basic training then buy their own boat. If you sailed a bit more with other - possibly more experienced people - on a range of different boats you would begin to develop a reasonable sense of what is and is not something to be worried about. There's no doubt the heeling of a sailing boat is something you have to learn to deal with, and trying to learn alongside someone else who is also struggling with the experience is not likely to be helpful as you will reinforce each other's anxieties. If you have been used to a motor boat that doesn't heel very much at all you have a very different set of sensations to learn.

Looking at the pictures of your boat I would say the chances of tipping her over in anything other than fairly extreme conditions are slight to non-existent. She has a broad beam amidships so as well as the weight of the keel keeping her from heeling too far, just as important is the way the buoyancy shifts to the leeward side as she heels, so the more you press her down on one side the greater the force resisting further heeling. Does that make sense?

 

[Fire99]

Further to what Ken's said, it's a good point about experience.

Why not take an 'expert' out with you for a sail and address these issues. It's always nice, when you're having a concerned moment, to have someone standing next to you who is completely calm and reassuring you that all is perfectly fine.

For what it's worth, I have little doubt that the extremes of what the boat can handle and what you think the boat can handle (not to mention what you feel comfortable yourself in) are poles apart.

 

[bbg]

its been explained many times by friends and an instructor that she wont go over that easily

I disagree with what you have been told. It isn't that she won't go over easily - I would go as far as to say she won't go over AT ALL. At least not due to the wind. Any boat can be rolled by a large enough breaking wave, but yours will never capsize (invert) due to the wind. Ever.

As for overcoming your apprehension, I suspect it is due to the feeling that you are losing control of the boat - that it is starting to tip more and there is nothing you can do about it. One thing that might help is to regain the feeling of control. You might consider going out in strong winds - preferably with someone who has a lot of experience - and trying to get the boat to heel. If you have an inclinometer you can set a goal - 10 degrees and hold it for 30 seconds - and do that several times until it feels comfortable. Then 15 degrees, then 20, then 25. Eventually you will find that you can't reach the next level, no matter how hard you try.

(As an aside, I used to work for a sailing school that tried to reassure people by having a standing challenge - anyone who could capsize one of the Cal 20s that were used for training, would win $1,000. The school had to discontinue the challenge after a year because it proved so expensive. No-one ever managed to capsize one of the boats, but some people broke a lot of eqiupment trying!)

In terms of control, you can reduce the amount of heel very quickly by dumping the main sheet. Once you realise that you can control the amount of heel, I suspect that it won't be so intimidating. Try sailing along close hauled alternately cranking on and then easing the mainsheet (maybe this as part of the exercise above). You'll see that you are in control. And when a gust hits, you can ease the main, or (once you gain some confidence) go with it - hold your breath for 10 seconds and you will see the boat will heel to the gust by a few degrees and then not go any farther.

Good luck. But also remember (as TK says) that most boats preferred to be sailed flatter and - after a certain point - will go faster when reefed. So although excessive heel is nothing to be scared of, it is usually something to be avoided.

 

[VARNE]

Don't know what she is, but looks a nice seaworthy boat. Fairly "traditional" hull with narrow entry and not too much beam, she probably sails well and quite fast.

Guessing at a ballast ratio of approx. 40%, such boats are often "initially tender" [ie. heel easilly] up to 15-20 degrees, when they suddenly harden up and become solid as a rock, well before the rails go under.

I would certainly trust her. Probably just your aprehension after the more level motor boat. Rides on other boats, for comparison, may help. Anyway, doesn't seem to be stopping you sailing.

 

[aquaholic]

Thanks for all your replys, i am really chuffed. I will take all of your comments on board,
boatmike, didnt mean to infer that you were a woos by having a cat
I think kenmcculloch has it the nail on the head regarding experience, had we been sailing with friends for some time prior to buying a yacht we may not be in this position.
But its not the end of the world, we still love sailing even though it may not be as quick as I would like. I think the idea of pushing ourselves each time is a good idea, and we will be going out with an instructor to experience some heavy winds.
Thanks again, feeling much better

 

[jonjo]

See if you can tag along on a racing yacht during a windy day training session. After you have experienced a few spinnaker broaches and seen how a yacht bobs back up again your own thrills and spills will seem mild.

Also learn the broach recovery process i.e. traveler down, spill the main sheet then release the kicker but leave the genoa alone.

 

[aquaholic]

Oh by the way she's a Verl 900.

 

[monkfish24]

tough love

listening to a lot of sound advice here has made me realise i use quite a shocking tactic. I take a lot of friends sailing who have little to no experience. I tend to try and get the boat to heel on her knuckle and keep it there, it usually scares people at first but after the initial shock and about 10 minutes of sailing like that i tend to ease off to a more comfortable level. The first shock of that tends to make the rest of the day ok. As your confidence and sea legs grow you'll find it becomes a lot easier, i once managed to get a yacht's keel out of the water for about a minute as i got the runners jammed on (it was a stripped out featherweight) it stayed on it's side and then as soon as everything was released it popped back up and no one was even wet. A little extreme i know but just goes to show how little danger you are in from a capsize

 

[fireball]

To me she looks like the type of boat that needs to heal to get sailing - don't forget, the keel will have little righting power when the boat is upright ...
Our last boat was a 'fall over and sail' boat when on the wind - she just didn't do small amounts of heal. In fact, to get the best speed to windward you needed to be about 6" from the lee rail being under. And over pressed - same comment as all the others - she just headed into the wind and popped back up.

Although you're thinking you're healed over a long way, you'd be suprised at how upright you really are!

 

[robp]

listening to a lot of sound advice here has made me realise i use quite a shocking tactic. I take a lot of friends sailing who have little to no experience. I tend to try and get the boat to heel on her knuckle and keep it there, it usually scares people at first but after the initial shock and about 10 minutes of sailing like that i tend to ease off to a more comfortable level. The first shock of that tends to make the rest of the day ok. As your confidence and sea legs grow you'll find it becomes a lot easier, i once managed to get a yacht's keel out of the water for about a minute as i got the runners jammed on (it was a stripped out featherweight) it stayed on it's side and then as soon as everything was released it popped back up and no one was even wet. A little extreme i know but just goes to show how little danger you are in from a capsize

I never forget years ago, my son excitedly telling me; "Dad ***** (boat name) has got a fin keel and I can see it - all of it!!"

 

[monkfish24]

if it was white with the words bullit written down the side in lime green, in plymouth sound then that would have been my fault

 

[KellysEye]

>I would go as far as to say she won't go over AT ALL. At least not due to the wind. Any boat can be rolled by a large enough breaking wave, but yours will never capsize (invert) due to the wind. Ever.

Absolutely right. Many tons of keel hanging under the boat helps, also as you heel you spill air so the loading on the sail decreases. The breaking waves (not just cresting) to be careful of are ones slightly bigger than your beam (so don't beam reach in those conditions) and slightly bigger than your length (so don't go downwind). With that in mind there's nothing to worry about - she looks like a good seaboat.

 

[Twister_Ken]

The Bullit I remember was a French quarter tonner. Same one?

 

[monkfish24]

The Bullit I remember was a French quarter tonner. Same one?

The same one, cold moulded ply, 26ft long with 10ft beam. Amazingly quick in light winds, the one i sailed on was bought after i sailed it for the quarter tonne cup last year and did very well. Absolute monster rig and running backstays made a suprising foul up if you got it wrong in a blow