chockswahay
Well-Known Member
Well, a few thoughts for me there !................ I would just like to say thank you very much to everybody for your time.
Chox
Chox
Help! What are bilge keels really like to sail?
- Thread starter chockswahay
- Start date
mapron
Active Member
sailing a bilge keel
Early bilge keelers (60s and 70s) had small stubby keels which meant that leeway was a problem and pointing was difficult. By the 80s designers had a much better idea of what was needed for a good sailing boat - bilge keels were bigger and well profiled for sailing.
I bought a Mirage 2700 bilge keel (1984) five years ago and sail in the Irish sea. I think it is a great boat. Stiff and reliable in a blow, spacious and comfortable in harbour. I would certainly choose another bilge keeler for my next boat. Long keels are good on a passage but not so easy to manouver in a marina or busy harbour.
Early bilge keelers (60s and 70s) had small stubby keels which meant that leeway was a problem and pointing was difficult. By the 80s designers had a much better idea of what was needed for a good sailing boat - bilge keels were bigger and well profiled for sailing.
I bought a Mirage 2700 bilge keel (1984) five years ago and sail in the Irish sea. I think it is a great boat. Stiff and reliable in a blow, spacious and comfortable in harbour. I would certainly choose another bilge keeler for my next boat. Long keels are good on a passage but not so easy to manouver in a marina or busy harbour.
Fire99
Well-Known Member
I think you have about a months reading so far.
That said it probably reads more like the defense and prosecution of a court case than all advice. 
Marsupial
Well-Known Member
Confusing?
In the 80's I raced on a Mirage 29 so what you are saying is that the portsmouth yard stick handicap system is fairly accurate but fin keelers have a better VMG. Find a tiwn keel boat where its sister fin keeler has a lower PM number. SO fin always sail better than bilge - sorry twin keelers. Then we dissapear into the relative advantantages of twin over fin; but the OP was asking about sailing ability and there is not one point of sail where when the boat is sailed well a twin keeler will outperform its fin keeled sister.
In the 80's I raced on a Mirage 29 so what you are saying is that the portsmouth yard stick handicap system is fairly accurate but fin keelers have a better VMG. Find a tiwn keel boat where its sister fin keeler has a lower PM number. SO fin always sail better than bilge - sorry twin keelers. Then we dissapear into the relative advantantages of twin over fin; but the OP was asking about sailing ability and there is not one point of sail where when the boat is sailed well a twin keeler will outperform its fin keeled sister.
Fire99
Well-Known Member
To be fair, I don't think anyone is attempting to say a bilge keel boat sails Better than a Fin. The point is that a good number of Bilge Keel boats sail very well and not motionless slugs that a good many would have you believe.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Tommyrot
Well-Known Member
I think that sums it up much better.
The OP was asking how a bilge keeler sails, not "does it sail as well as a fin" ....
Comments like " what angle of apparent wind can you sail at, we get 27 deg " are really not helpful at all.
Many fin keelers wouldn't point that high, you have a boat that does, so what?
Beating off a lee shore? Poor seamanship to end up on one....
sailorman
Well-Known Member
I think that sums it up much better.
The OP was asking how a bilge keeler sails, not "does it sail as well as a fin" ....
Comments like " what angle of apparent wind can you sail at, we get 27 deg " are really not helpful at all.
Many fin keelers wouldn't point that high, you have a boat that does, so what?
Beating off a lee shore? Poor seamanship to end up on one....
not all boats can " Beat of a Lee Shore"
Tommyrot
Well-Known Member
LORDNELSON
Well-Known Member
I seem to remember that some work done on stability in large breaking seas (Southampton University?) indicated that boats with shallow keels did not suffer so much from " tripping" when sliding sideways in/on breaking beam seas. If my recollection is correct it may be that twin keel and swing keel/CB boats are better sea boats under some conditions. Perhaps someone who is up to date on this subject could comment?
BurnitBlue
Well-Known Member
There are two major disadvantages to bilge (twin) keels that have not been mentioned in this thread.
I was anchored in my Catamaran in Biscayne Bay when I was awoken by a tapping on the hull. It was a very beautiful young lady singlehander from a Westerly anchored close by. Apparantly when the current changed the boat did not swing so the anchor rode got trapped between the keels. She dare not start the engine because the anchor rode now lay under the whole boat and lay close to the prop. Also the wind had increased and the rode was also bearing on the prop and rudder as the boat, stern to the wind, yawed back and forth. I climbed into my dinghy to paddle over there. My wife, god bless her, insisted that she accompany me to help free the boat. It took quite a while for us to do this and opened my eyes to a major problem with this keel configuration.
The other problem I have heard about, second hand, is the way the bilge keels tend to channel any rubbish in the water down on to the exposed prop. Especially if the prop is turning adding a sucking effect to the water channel.
I should mention that I have never owned or sailed a bilge keeler.
I was anchored in my Catamaran in Biscayne Bay when I was awoken by a tapping on the hull. It was a very beautiful young lady singlehander from a Westerly anchored close by. Apparantly when the current changed the boat did not swing so the anchor rode got trapped between the keels. She dare not start the engine because the anchor rode now lay under the whole boat and lay close to the prop. Also the wind had increased and the rode was also bearing on the prop and rudder as the boat, stern to the wind, yawed back and forth. I climbed into my dinghy to paddle over there. My wife, god bless her, insisted that she accompany me to help free the boat. It took quite a while for us to do this and opened my eyes to a major problem with this keel configuration.
The other problem I have heard about, second hand, is the way the bilge keels tend to channel any rubbish in the water down on to the exposed prop. Especially if the prop is turning adding a sucking effect to the water channel.
I should mention that I have never owned or sailed a bilge keeler.
Allan
Well-Known Member
I have heard about both of those problems. The first, only once and they put up the main with all reefs in and managed to sail around into a position that enabled the chain to drop away. We had the second one happen this January in the Bristol channel. The only damage done was some sctatches to the antifoul, the owner plans to dry out in the near future to touch it up. One positive about bilge keelers is that when it comes to lift out time there should be no worries about falling over. I heard recently that one of the fin keelers from our club has fallen over and may be a right off. I surpose, you pays yer money and takes yer choice.
Allan
Robin
Well-Known Member
Another disadvantage in the non 'sailing' attributes is that a bilge keeler that runs aground unintentionally is very difficult to get off, whereas a fin keeler has some chance of reducing draft by inducing heeling. Avoidable perhaps but I've got the tee shirt on both keel variations.
Fire99
Well-Known Member
To be fair, if I ran aground at the top of the tide or near the top of the tide but on a falling tide AND I was sailing in under 2.5 ft of water, I think to be honest a bit of time sitting still is the least i'd deserve for being such a pillock!
Tommyrot
Well-Known Member
While it's obvious that any boat can run aground (and I sail in The Wash ) if a bilge keeler is sailing and heeled when it grounds, as it comes upright the draft is decreased, the opposite to the fin or long keel.
2.5ft of water? That's plenty!
) if a bilge keeler is sailing and heeled when it grounds, as it comes upright the draft is decreased, the opposite to the fin or long keel.2.5ft of water? That's plenty!
Robin
Well-Known Member
To be fair, if I ran aground at the top of the tide or near the top of the tide but on a falling tide AND I was sailing in under 2.5 ft of water, I think to be honest a bit of time sitting still is the least i'd deserve for being such a pillock!
Quite probably, but the East Coast doesn't have a monopoly on skinny waters! Poole is a very shallow harbour with a tidal range at springs of 2m and the difference between being afloat in a channel or stuck just outside it is a matter of a few metres and many channels are not even deep enough anyway at LW even for bilge keelers. With a double high tide here the impression is of a harbour with wide expanses of water, the reality is that it is a large area most of which dries at LW springs and yet is covered for 75% of the time with little depth anywhere because the rise is only 2m on springs.
The advantages of a bilge keeler in Poole are several, including cheaper drying moorings, the ability to reach the many parts of the harbour fin keelers cannot go and cheaper winter bills without the need for a cradle. However in Poole it is never a case of IF you run aground but WHEN if you are using the shoal draft advantage of the bilge keeler. Those like me who for the last 27 years have had a fin keeler and the last 8 years with one drawing near 7ft know better than to stray outside of the dredged deep water channels used by the ferries! Even the ferries stay out at LW big springs...
oldharry
Well-Known Member
I am not sure that being awoken by a beautiful young lady in distress is all that much of a problem is it, except maybe for SWMBO if she is aboard? That apart, I have twice assisted fin keelers caught by anchor warps round their keels on the turn of tide and wind. Long keelers are the least likely to be caught this way, but even they can get in a fair old twist on the odd occasion if the anchor warp gets caught in the sterngear.
And yes the prop is more exposed on a bilge keeler, making it more efficient, as it is not running in the 'shadow' of the keel. I do not know why, but I had more fouled props with my long keeled Eventide 26 than ever with bilge keelers, before or since, although it was running in a cutout at the aft end of the keel (non standard arragment for the E26, but which improved handling no end)
Fire99
Well-Known Member
While it's obvious that any boat can run aground (and I sail in The Wash
2.5ft of water? That's plenty!
Good point.. And on the 2.5ft bit, well i'm just being a woos. My engine is more than powerful enough to dig a new channel which to be fair I did nearly need to do when I decided to take a bit of a shortcut near a cardinal buoy near low water.. Best we skim over that one (excuse the pun. haha)
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
Has your wife taken out extra life insurance on you lately by any chance?
LORDNELSON
Well-Known Member
The advantages of a twin keeler
From another post on this forum:
"Currently the marina wants to keep boat owners away from the boat whilst it is being hoisted(ELFIN SAFETY). But, we ask, how can we antifoul where the pads have been and under the keel. Drying Out berth.... but that means 150 boats will want a slot which is limited due to tides etc so how can we solve that? No answer and.... on a drying out berth one cannot paint under the keel.
What about doing it when ashore? If the hull is on a four pad cradle, removing one does pose a risk in that with only three pads in contact with the hull a breeze can cause the hull to tumble.
So how do you do it safely?"
Own a twin keeler?
From another post on this forum:
"Currently the marina wants to keep boat owners away from the boat whilst it is being hoisted(ELFIN SAFETY). But, we ask, how can we antifoul where the pads have been and under the keel. Drying Out berth.... but that means 150 boats will want a slot which is limited due to tides etc so how can we solve that? No answer and.... on a drying out berth one cannot paint under the keel.
What about doing it when ashore? If the hull is on a four pad cradle, removing one does pose a risk in that with only three pads in contact with the hull a breeze can cause the hull to tumble.
So how do you do it safely?"
Own a twin keeler?