Help! What are bilge keels really like to sail?
- Thread starter chockswahay
- Start date
Marsupial
Well-Known Member
Try loking at the Mirage yachts. The older 28 was a very capable bilge keeler, the designers would call her a twin keel. The later 29 and 30.5 (the same boat) were very roomy and sailed to windward. The smaller sister the 2700 was a very comfortable yacht. When it comes to taking the ground the Mirage and Jaguars were very robust but Moody's were not - thats nothing against Moody just that they had hull problems (they were not designed to pound on the mud,and the others were. The problem I found with the bilge/twin keel configuration is that the rudder is too small and looses grip early so the boat rounds up, shortening sail did work and the boat went faster.
The snap draggon is a well built boat but it does sail sideways, makes more leeway than headway, but a tough boat nevertheless with lots of fans.
The snap draggon is a well built boat but it does sail sideways, makes more leeway than headway, but a tough boat nevertheless with lots of fans.
Pete7
Well-Known Member
In addition to a regular scrub there is also the annual antifoul. My options are over £400 to a south coast yard for a week or drop her on the club scrubbing grid for a few hours, it soon mounts up and might be difference of a new Genoa this year or repair (again) and use the baggy 10 year old one. There was also a night spent in Bembridge harbour dried out whilst we waited for a weather front to go through.
Winter cradle, whats one of them
I wouldn't wory about the keel, find a nice boat you really want to own, cherish and then enjoy what ever the keel.
Pete
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sailorman
Well-Known Member
In addition to a regular scrub there is also the annual antifoul. My options are over £400 to a south coast yard for a week or drop her on the club scrubbing grid for a few hours, it soon mounts up and might be difference of a new Genoa this year or repair (again) and use the baggy 10 year old one. There was also a night spent in Bembridge harbour dried out whilst we waited for a weather front to go through.
Winter cradle, whats one of them
Pete
Crawling between bilge plates to antifoul Wots That
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
Drying out for a cheap scrub down isn't a perk enjoyed only by bilge keelers. The rest of us can do it too, we just need something to lean on
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Drying out for a cheap scrub down isn't a perk enjoyed only by bilge keelers. The rest of us can do it too, we just need something to lean on
http://www.ybw.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4105&stc=1&d=1268338128
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daveyw
Well-Known Member
My Macwester 27 is solidly built and taken me offshore in good blows. Had total confidence in her. As it happens she for sail as i'm up grading. If you fancy the shallow draft and a fin keel(lift keel), there's a southly 28 on ebay at a very reasonable price
tarik
Well-Known Member
Colvic bilge keeler - Atlanta
Can anybody give me any information on the sail handling of a Colvic Atlanta 31' ? It has bilge keels.
Would be very grateful for any advice/opinions
As always - many thanks for all replies
David
Can anybody give me any information on the sail handling of a Colvic Atlanta 31' ? It has bilge keels.
Would be very grateful for any advice/opinions
As always - many thanks for all replies
David
srp
Well-Known Member
That's why I used a question mark, as it's not the sort of boat I'm familiar with. I'm sure I've seen some big ocean racers with keel arrangements other than the conventional mono. And I was just trying to make the point that a single keel doesn't necessarily mean greater (better?) performance, as there are so many other factors involved. As someone else said in another response it's too easy to compare apples with oranges and reach a conclusion, right or wrong, by using flawed logic.
JimC
Well-Known Member
I've never owned or sailed one myself but I've always admired them for their sturdy and seamanlike appearance. From speaking to people who know these boats I understand that they are towards the "motorboat with sails" end of the motor-sailer spectrum. The sails will move them along OK on a reach or run but probably need plenty of engine plugging away to windward. Also the rudder could do with being bigger/deeper for good control when heeled under sail. Still a good serviceable cruiser if used as intended.
bbg
Well-Known Member
You have probably seen Open 60 or VO70 boats, which invariably have a single keel, usually that can swing, and two daggerboards. Single keel for stability, and daggerboards for leeway. Not comparable at all to bilge keels.
I believe this is a keel from a VO70.
rwoofer
Well-Known Member
Since others have mentioned them, I have a RM, which does perform very well indeed.
As with all boats it is really down to what it was designed for. The RM was designed to be a good performer from rig to hull shape/construction to the bilge keels themselves - so it shouldn't be surprise that it meets the design criteria. Just look at these appendages:
The designer (Marc Lombard) could not have done those without performance on his mind.
So to reinforce the point made by previous posters, I wouldn't use bilge keels as a ruling out criteria, but go on what the individual boat itself offers.
As with all boats it is really down to what it was designed for. The RM was designed to be a good performer from rig to hull shape/construction to the bilge keels themselves - so it shouldn't be surprise that it meets the design criteria. Just look at these appendages:
The designer (Marc Lombard) could not have done those without performance on his mind.
So to reinforce the point made by previous posters, I wouldn't use bilge keels as a ruling out criteria, but go on what the individual boat itself offers.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Question.
Do you think you would get the same advantages (shoal draft, ability to dry out) from a single keel with the same total weight paired with twin rudders engineered to support the boat when dried out? Especially if the boat was designed to sit back slightly when ashore.
That would seem to me to offer a slightly lower wetted surface area solution coupled with increased control under sail.
CAPTAIN FANTASTIC
Well-Known Member
It is nonsense to say that bilge keelers don't sail well. The Fulmar bilge keel sails very well and it is extremely stable and only less than half a knot slower than the Sigma 33 fin keel; i know because i was sailing both of them.
The early Westerleys 32 ft bilge keelers also sail very well and regularly cross the Atlantic. The Macwester Wight which was hydro-performance tested during its design stages at in Southampton University, sails well considering it has 1 m draught and two heavy keels. The Sadlers are another example of a successful bilge design. Also bilge keelers are much drier and more comfortable to sail than the long and fin keelers.
There are advantages and disadvantages but don't knock them; bilge keelers are great; The ability of the captain to sail and to maintain his yacht is almost always more questionable than the design ability of his yacht.
The early Westerleys 32 ft bilge keelers also sail very well and regularly cross the Atlantic. The Macwester Wight which was hydro-performance tested during its design stages at in Southampton University, sails well considering it has 1 m draught and two heavy keels. The Sadlers are another example of a successful bilge design. Also bilge keelers are much drier and more comfortable to sail than the long and fin keelers.
There are advantages and disadvantages but don't knock them; bilge keelers are great; The ability of the captain to sail and to maintain his yacht is almost always more questionable than the design ability of his yacht.
haydude
Well-Known Member
It may be a matter of perception
It is hard to tell because bilge keel designs are quite old and for this reason are hard to compare with newer boats. I used to have a bilge keel boat and I was not happy with performance but honestly the hull and keel only contributed to a portion of the issue, because it was also heavy, had poor rigging design, a rubbish furling boom and the sails weren't exactly cut right.
If everything else is OK bilge keels, although still not perfect, may have a much smaller impact on performance than what is otherwise perceived.
It is hard to tell because bilge keel designs are quite old and for this reason are hard to compare with newer boats. I used to have a bilge keel boat and I was not happy with performance but honestly the hull and keel only contributed to a portion of the issue, because it was also heavy, had poor rigging design, a rubbish furling boom and the sails weren't exactly cut right.
If everything else is OK bilge keels, although still not perfect, may have a much smaller impact on performance than what is otherwise perceived.
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contessaman
Well-Known Member
Define good sailing ability? Fast and close winded, no. But the thread starter did not specify speed. He wanted a chunky cruiser to look after him and his wife!
There are plenty of very seaworthy twin keelers out there. The eb dubois westerlys are all good boats. Able boats.
I'll agree that there is an argument (like an approaching lee shore!) that says seaworthiness and windward ability are directly linked. But you have to look at what type of sailing the guy wants to do. The westerlies tend to compensate for (windward) performance with a big engine, if required.
Dont get me wrong i'm a fin keel man. I sail a very racy fin keeler on the bristol channel. Mine wont even dry out against a wall without tipping forward, that all ads up to a big disadvantage where I sail.
However, I like sailing to be fast and hairy. I'm young, so I enjoy whipping up and down the unweildy sails and feeding them into the luff foil.
but god knows when I'm older I'm sure I'll buy an easy to handle boat. Roller reefing et al. Maybe even a fisher or other motor sailier.
No Mr thread starter. I reckon you need a westerly Griffon twin keeler.
Just make sure its got a good engine
twinkeel
Active Member
You might also look at the Seawolf designs. The designer, David Feltham, still argues convincingly of the merits of well designed twin keel boats. He distinguishes between such and the somewhat slab like bilge keels seen on many of the Moody and Westerley designs. See http://www.cobra-seawolf.com/
I now have a Seawolf 30 which goes very well provided you do not get into a luffing match with a well sailed fin keeler. Better to drive off and watch the VMG.
Last December we out raced a Moody 31 but some of that was I am sure down to what looked like inexperience on the part of the Moody skipper.
In the past had a Westerley Centaur which was no where near as good but, for what it was designed to do I still regard it as a good, pretty bullet proof boat.
As several have said here its probably wise not to focus on bilge keels per se but rather on what you are going to do with the boat. For example a cat can sit down and is pretty fast off the wind but generally more expensive than a monohull
Given enough money I would vote for the RM boats they look great and sail very well but are damn expensive
Have fun
I now have a Seawolf 30 which goes very well provided you do not get into a luffing match with a well sailed fin keeler. Better to drive off and watch the VMG.
Last December we out raced a Moody 31 but some of that was I am sure down to what looked like inexperience on the part of the Moody skipper.
In the past had a Westerley Centaur which was no where near as good but, for what it was designed to do I still regard it as a good, pretty bullet proof boat.
As several have said here its probably wise not to focus on bilge keels per se but rather on what you are going to do with the boat. For example a cat can sit down and is pretty fast off the wind but generally more expensive than a monohull
Given enough money I would vote for the RM boats they look great and sail very well but are damn expensive
Have fun
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Don't know if any of you followed the link to a previous thread someone put in on page 1, but in that thread I offered this link to an American yacht designer who rates twin keels.
I had a dumpy old bilge keeler, albeit with quite well designed keels. On a lake like Windermere they are a bit of a pain as the slightly lower pointing added to the leeway makes a hell of a cumulative difference if you are tacking a lot, which on a 1 mile wide lake, you will be.
This sketch I did previously shows the leeway being amplified by the constant tacking, losing a bit of ground gained at each tack. If you stay on a beat for some time it should be less of a problem.
I had a dumpy old bilge keeler, albeit with quite well designed keels. On a lake like Windermere they are a bit of a pain as the slightly lower pointing added to the leeway makes a hell of a cumulative difference if you are tacking a lot, which on a 1 mile wide lake, you will be.
This sketch I did previously shows the leeway being amplified by the constant tacking, losing a bit of ground gained at each tack. If you stay on a beat for some time it should be less of a problem.
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Tommyrot
Well-Known Member
Biggest difference I've found is that bilge keel owners don't tend to look down their noses at other types of boat quite as much as some do.....
smeaks
Well-Known Member
i sail a moody 27 bilger. She is great and has prooved seaworthy in 35knts plus off the northumberland coast. I sail with a pal who has a fin keel version which does point higher but the two boats are quite well matched. On her I feel safe and secure and she handles well. I am aware of another 27 bilger moored up in Holy island that has crossed to Norway without drama.
sail both and make up your mind.
sail both and make up your mind.
