Help! What are bilge keels really like to sail?

[chockswahay]

I recently posted asking for opinions on a small seaworthy boat for two people. I said I was looking for something that would be off shore capable and mentioned long keel etc....

Now this has got me thinking. I have never sailed with bilge keels so have no experience of them whatsoever, however I do see the attractions of being able to take the ground at will, sail up shallow creeks, no need for winter cradle.....etc

But, do they sail well? Are there any 27/28 footers that will look after me in a big sea/blow?

What is the motion like, can they point up?

I have been considering the likes of Twister, Trapper, Albin Vega, Nics, Contessa etc....

Am I overlooking the bilge keel boats? I am not a die hard sailor but my wife does insist that what ever we get she must be able to sail it single handed and feel safe in F7 or F8 if need be (me? I'd rather be safe on a canal boat!!)

Any thoughts anyone?

Many thamks

Chox

 

[EdWingfield]

Any thoughts anyone?

Creek crawler, able to take the ground. Plus s/h offshore ability in big wind and seas?

You are asking too much.

 

[BAtoo]

Bilge keels and good sailing ability don't go together IMHO.

 

[AliM]

"Bilge keels and good sailing ability don't go together IMHO. "

That is a bit harsh - look at the RM range - sail like witches, point at least as well as fin keelers and sit happily on the beach on their twin/bilge keels. There's a couple of posters here who will give you first-hand experience.

Generally, bilge kelers don't point as high or sail as fast as fins, but unless you race, i doubt you'd notice the difference. There was a well known test with sister boats (Sadlers, I think) with a fin and bilge racing against each other, with crews who alternated between them. They failed to identify which was which.

Don't dismiss them - try one or two and see what you think. They make lots of sense for some areas, none at all for others.

Really off-shore, it's the 27/28 ft limit which would be more of a challenge than the bilge/fin/long keel, in my opinion.

 

[sailorman]

Bilge keels and good sailing ability don't go together IMHO.

correct.
we came out of the Orwell last year with a Sadler 34 BK heading down the Wallet.
we stayed on the same tack out of the Orwell to beyond the Spitway they done many tacks & quit just passed Walton Pr.
the windward keel also slams in a seaway on the wind
that said we do have a boat designed to go to windward

 

[JohnP]

Bilge keels

I had a Hurley 24 and a Moody 346 with bilge keels. I do not think there was any difference in the Hurley. I regularly sailed in company with a fin keel Moody. He pointed 10 degrees better and would be 2 miles ahead on a 60 mile passage. I do think I was concerned except when beating in F6 upwards. Leeway could be almost as much as forward progress. Better quality sails may have made a difference. I also had a Trapper 501 which was an excellent sea boat. I took my children from Salcombe to Guernsey and Jersey when they were 6 and 8 without any worries even with big seas off Corbiere.

 

[srp]

Bilge keels and good sailing ability don't go together IMHO.

Have to say that I can't agree with that at all, as it's written - a bit too generalised. AliM has already mentioned the RM range. And aren't a lot of the Vendée Globe boats twin or bilge keelers? Maybe a bit extreme to compare them to a 30' cruiser, but they still have 2 keels and go round the world.
If you want to read an experienced sailor's view of a small bilge keeler in tough conditions I would point you to Roger Taylors excellent book http://thesimplesailor.com/book.html
It all depends on what you really mean when you talk of 'sailing ability'. Not everyone is bothered about the last couple of degrees of pointing ability. And sailing isn't really about speed either (if it was you'd either leave eearlier, plan shorter trips or use an engine).
For me, the convenience of being able to take the ground, to easily dry out for a scrub, not worry about props and cradles when out for the winter far outweigh any performance gains that I'm unlikely to actually need.
If I was a racer, or wanted to do long distances maybe I'd change my mind.....

 

[sailorman]

Have to say that I can't agree with that at all, as it's written - a bit too generalised. AliM has already mentioned the RM range. And aren't a lot of the Vendée Globe boats twin or bilge keelers? Maybe a bit extreme to compare them to a 30' cruiser, but they still have 2 keels and go round the world.
If you want to read an experienced sailor's view of a small bilge keeler in tough conditions I would point you to Roger Taylors excellent book http://thesimplesailor.com/book.html
It all depends on what you really mean when you talk of 'sailing ability'. Not everyone is bothered about the last couple of degrees of pointing ability. And sailing isn't really about speed either (if it was you'd either leave eearlier, plan shorter trips or use an engine).
For me, the convenience of being able to take the ground, to easily dry out for a scrub, not worry about props and cradles when out for the winter far outweigh any performance gains that I'm unlikely to actually need.
If I was a racer, or wanted to do long distances maybe I'd change my mind.....

the "Last couple of Degrees" might be as much as 15>20

 

[Athene V30]

In my teens I used to sail a bilge keeler and would have had the view they don't point, they slam in a sea etc. But we had less draft to get into shallower places / anchor closer to beach etc and could take the ground.

My boat has a long keel. Completely different boat to sail, great at sea but horrible to manoeuver in a marina.

In my view it comes down to personal choices. My boat was bought for a purpose as I want to do some longer distance cruising so directional stability at sea is a big plus BUT my usual weekend cruising ground is the East Coast where bilge or lifting keel is an advantage. A chap I know took his bilge keeled Westerly Centaur singlehanded to the Azores and didn't have any problems despite 2 gales on the way. So bilge keelers can do it too!

 

[Scillypete]

Hunter horizon 26/27 are great little sailing boats with twin keels, much more room and more comfortable accomodation than the ones you have been considering (IMHO). Slight amount of slamming due to flattish bottom when on a beat, but not that often as to be considered bad, and who wants to beat for long periods anyway.

I am planning to take mine south to spend the winter aboard in somewhat warmer weather so a couple of long passages will be involved and this will be singlehanded, they are easily sailed by one.

There have been many notable ocean voyages by small bilge keeled boats over the years, Shane Acton in 'Shrimpy' a bit extreme probably, Alistair Buchanan did an Atlantic circuit on both a Hurley 20 bilge keeler and a Dockerel 27 long keeler his book might be worth a read. Chay Blithe set off on the Golden Globe challenge in a westerly bilge keeler but retired somewhere in south America if I remember correctly. A large number of the boats that have or are taking part in past and upcoming 'Jester' challenges are bilge keelers.

A lot of the time its not the boat that struggles with the passage making its whether the crew are up to it in the first place.

 

[oldharry]

Any thoughts anyone?

Creek crawler, able to take the ground. Plus s/h offshore ability in big wind and seas?

You are asking too much.

Why? Many Bilge keelers have gone huge distances, even round the world, performing every bit as well as their fin keel couterparts.

Nothing whatsoever unsafe about the concept. The bad reputation of Bilge keelers comes from the smaller designs of the 60's 70's. some - many even - of which had the windward qualities of a shed, usually due to trying to cram too much accomodation into a small waterline, and ending up with something that looked and sailed like a caravan.

The smaller Sadlers are an outstanding example. The S26 Bilge Keeler was tested against the fin version. The Bilge Keeler pointed just as well upwind - but was marginally slower, and off the wind was actually faster than the fin keeler.

There is a lot of nonsense talked about bilge keelers. Some pound if they lift the windward keel, but many fin keelers pound as well, as they come off big seas. It is true you are unlikely to get the best possible windward performance, but a good design will hold its own in a bad blow.

But there is absolutely nothing that makes a bilge keeler any less seaworthy than its fin keel counterpart. The only real minus is the increased wetted area, which takes the edge off them as out and out racing machines. In club racing, and for cruising the slight loss of speed is negligible, and many bilge keelers are regularly winning their cups!

 

[LORDNELSON]

Twin Keelers

I recently posted asking for opinions on a small seaworthy boat for two people. I said I was looking for something that would be off shore capable and mentioned long keel etc....

Now this has got me thinking. I have never sailed with bilge keels so have no experience of them whatsoever, however I do see the attractions of being able to take the ground at will, sail up shallow creeks, no need for winter cradle.....etc

But, do they sail well? Are there any 27/28 footers that will look after me in a big sea/blow?

What is the motion like, can they point up?

I have been considering the likes of Twister, Trapper, Albin Vega, Nics, Contessa etc....

Am I overlooking the bilge keel boats? I am not a die hard sailor but my wife does insist that what ever we get she must be able to sail it single handed and feel safe in F7 or F8 if need be (me? I'd rather be safe on a canal boat!!)

Any thoughts anyone?

Many thamks

Chox

Started sailing in 1944, always avoided twin keelers until 2007 when my wife and I decided we were too old for long distance sailing. We thus looked for a boat suitable for sailing on the South Coast with occasional visits to France; much of our sailing is around the Isle of Wight. So we purchased a Westerly Merlin. Never been out in anything more windy than a force 7 (except on the Solent where we once were out in a force 8). The Merlin (28 ft 8ins) has never given us any cause for alarm, handles well in strong winds, points much better than I expected and is satisfactorily quick enough for cruising. Never had any problem with the so-called weather keel slamming (but this may be because the Merlin's keels are closer together than many other designs). There are so many advantages obtained from a twin keeler that I would recommend them unless you are going in for performance sailing.

 

[Kelpie]

What are bilge keels like to sail?
Not so good until you attach them to a boat....

(sorry...)

 

[PeterGibbs]

Bilge keels and good sailing ability don't go together IMHO.

Generally, there is truth in this.

My first BK was a Westerly Konsort - sailed like a frying pan, smack, smack, but very dependable, forgiving and capable of good speed off the breeze.

I traded up to a Fulmar BK - a far superior experience: I sailed out my worst ever gale in her and kept excellent passage times. A very good but not a great pointer. Yes, in certain medium seas you get the smack of sea between the keels, but overall, great...

I hardly ever used the grounding ability - it's much over rated: who would not be concerned at deliberately putting several tonnes of boat onto an uncertain platform?

Final point - we seem to have the largest population of BK's in the world - ie the rest of the sailing fraternity have not seen the advantages. You have to ask yourself why?

PWG

 

[PatrickB02]

It depends...

The other point to remember here is that not all bilge keels are equal – you need to look at the shape and size of the keels and how they are angled.

Some older bilge keels are short, stubby and vertical; they were made this way to be easier to release from the mould. These really don’t sail well, and give rise to some of the adverse comments above.

More modern bilge keels, however, are better shaped, better proportioned, and splayed outwards. These give much better sailing performance, and in some cases (Sadler, RM, as mentioned above) can be indistinguishable from their fin keel sibling.

 

[Fire99]

Final point - we seem to have the largest population of BK's in the world - ie the rest of the sailing fraternity have not seen the advantages. You have to ask yourself why?

PWG

Because they suit the Sailing area that they were intended for?

The two areas where i've sailed yachts give me very diffrerent opinions. On the Solent, I didn't see a vast amount of benefit of Bilge Keels, where as back at home on the East Coast mud, I think they're excellent.

Also be careful not to compare apples and oranges. It's a bit pointless to go from a poor sailing Bilge Keeler to a good sailing Fin Keeler and use it as a benchmark for knocking 'Bilgies'

The Bilge versus Fin debate seems to spark almost as much division as 'Stinky versus Raggy' but personally i'd say, keep an open mind and don't discount them off the cuff.

 

[MoodySabre]

Here's my comparison from last year Fin v Bilge Keels

 

[[10753]]

Go sail a Kingfisher 30 in F6+ and you'll come out wanting one !
Keels are aerofoil in design drawing around 4 feet. The boat is heavy, the keels are deep. No slapping. Disadvantage, you will get very wet ! She will average 6.5 knots over the hour if all is set correctly. My boat has crossed the pond several times and cruised down to India through the Med. All being well there is a K30 in this years Jester challenge. She may not be the most luxurious of yachts but for practicality she's perfect - full sized chart table, deep safe cockpit, easily sailed single handed etc.

 

[JimC]

There are bilge keelers and bilge keelers. The French RMs have already been mentioned, these are reputedly very fast indeed. At the other extreme are the old Westerlys, Macwesters etc which are slow and make a lot of leeway. The British Hunters are good performers as bilge keelers. A lot depends on where you sail. Here in NW England the majority of harbours and anchorages dry out and a fin keeler would drastically curtail one's cruising options, so the majority of small cruisers are twin keelers. Go up to the Clyde where they have small tides and deep water everywhere and and twin keelers are a small minority.

 

[flaming]

And aren't a lot of the Vendée Globe boats twin or bilge keelers?

Sorry, can't let that slide.

On what plannet can a boat with a 4m deep swing keel, argumented by an unballasted daggerboard (or two) be considered twin keel?

In my humble opinion the ability to take the ground is very much overated. My dad had a Westerly Griffon bilge keeler for 15 years. We intentionally grounded it once. And when we did unintentionally ground it, it was a pain to get off again!

And yes, the sailing ability does suffer. Modern designs such as the RM are certainly better sailors, but then modern fin keel designs are streets ahead of the fin keelers of the 80s too.
To me, the most important part of a boat's performance, from a cruising point of view, is the ability to make ground to windward. Any shed can blow downwind, but making ground to windward when you have to can make a huge difference to a cruise.