Help Pick My First Sailboat!

[The Real Flipper]

Sorry this may qualify as spam at this point but my ignorance on buying a boat is apparently bottomless (despite having searched for months- ouch!)

I don't mind my ego isn't crushed as long as I end up on a sailboat the pain of getting there will be quickly forgotten ?

So my question is this: just how exactly do you folks recommend approaching a boat sales rep? I have actually responded to ads no less than 15 times and I've literally gotten two responses, telling me boats were sold. I'm not kidding!

Now either these guys are *really* disinterested in doing their job. Or they get so many emails and phone calls (I've tried both for boats including the Wibo BTW) to no avail. They simply ghost me.

How do you actually get these people's attention?

 

[V1701]

Sorry how do you use a marine toilet responsibly in a marina without a holding tank? I'm lost.
Please forgive the ignorance!

Mine is a separator loo (not to be confused with a composting loo) - the pee goes into a plastic container, poo into a bucket with a biodegradable bin liner in, therefore easy to use responsibly. Composting loos and separator loos are gaining in popularity. For those with conventional marine loos here in the UK it's (I think) generally considered acceptable to use it to pee in the marina (as long as it's not a locked marina) but should use the marina facilities for pooing - most adhere to this I would say...

 

[V1701]

Sorry this may qualify as spam at this point but my ignorance on buying a boat is apparently bottomless (despite having searched for months- ouch!)

I don't mind my ego isn't crushed as long as I end up on a sailboat the pain of getting there will be quickly forgotten ?

So my question is this: just how exactly do you folks recommend approaching a boat sales rep? I have actually responded to ads no less than 15 times and I've literally gotten two responses, telling me boats were sold. I'm not kidding!

Now either these guys are *really* disinterested in doing their job. Or they get so many emails and phone calls (I've tried both for boats including the Wibo BTW) to no avail. They simply ghost me.

How do you actually get these people's attention?

A lot of people would say that, whilst there are without doubt some very good brokers, there are also plenty of, let's say less good brokers as well. There's a shortage of used boats and some brokers are leaving their listings live after boats have sold to make it look like they have stock available. So general ineptitude and the boat you're inquiring about being already sold are a couple of reasons. I'm on my 6th boat now (I've been a bit of a boat tart!), 5 were bought privately, all of which went pleasantly and smoothly, in fact I ended up getting quite pally with some of them. The one I bought through a broker was not a pleasant experience.

In the UK post Brexit we have to pay VAT on boats bought in the EU so UK boats all of a sudden are more attractive than before, add that to Covid meaning people can't travel has resulted in not only boats but campervans, caravans, motorbikes, tents, bicycles (anything that has wheels or that you can conceivably sleep in or on in fact), have all become more in demand. At the moment decent boats are being snapped up quickly so watch the websites like a hawk & pounce when you see something that looks like it's what you're after...

 

[The Real Flipper]

Mine is a separator loo (not to be confused with a composting loo) - the pee goes into a plastic container, poo into a bucket with a biodegradable bin liner in, therefore easy to use responsibly. Composting loos and separator loos are gaining in popularity. For those with conventional marine loos here in the UK it's (I think) generally considered acceptable to use it to pee in the marina (as long as it's not a locked marina) but should use the marina facilities for pooing - most adhere to this I would say...

Interesting. And the price is right!
So does the pea have a system to discharge overboard? Or do you just dump it manually?

 

[The Real Flipper]

A lot of people would say that, whilst there are without doubt some very good brokers, there are also plenty of, let's say less good brokers as well. There's a shortage of used boats and some brokers are leaving their listings live after boats have sold to make it look like they have stock available. So general ineptitude and the boat you're inquiring about being already sold are a couple of reasons. I'm on my 6th boat now (I've been a bit of a boat tart!), 5 were bought privately, all of which went pleasantly and smoothly, in fact I ended up getting quite pally with some of them. The one I bought through a broker was not a pleasant experience.

In the UK post Brexit we have to pay VAT on boats bought in the EU so UK boats all of a sudden are more attractive than before, add that to Covid meaning people can't travel has resulted in not only boats but campervans, caravans, motorbikes, tents, bicycles (anything that has wheels or that you can conceivably sleep in or on in fact), have all become more in demand. At the moment decent boats are being snapped up quickly so watch the websites like a hawk & pounce when you see something that looks like it's what you're after...

Hmm, so maybe instead of sorting by price I'll sort by posted date ;-)
And try to be quick!

 

[V1701]

Interesting. And the price is right!
So does the pea have a system to discharge overboard? Or do you just dump it manually?

Manually but you could have it discharge through a seacock I guess...

 

[ashtead]

In summary it would seem you might be best off with an EU boat but maybe there are Dutch owners websites for popular Dutch owned boats. If we assume volume is important and perhaps more key than sailing ability then I guess a few motorsailers might be the way to search like an lm27 say . With that beneteau I would be searching out a few other owners by posting a question on that boat eg do beneteau specify model ,sail well/engine issues/osmosis problems etc. Also get hold of any reviews you can find . There are loads around on Berwick,pentland,renown and longbows but maybe a 33 discus etc . Might be a tad pricey I guess.

 

[KompetentKrew]

The Dutch boat market is very good. I assume you've checked Boot Te Koop, OP?

Also Sailboats from 1000 EUR on Facebook.

 

[Tranona]

Sorry this may qualify as spam at this point but my ignorance on buying a boat is apparently bottomless (despite having searched for months- ouch!)

I don't mind my ego isn't crushed as long as I end up on a sailboat the pain of getting there will be quickly forgotten ?

So my question is this: just how exactly do you folks recommend approaching a boat sales rep? I have actually responded to ads no less than 15 times and I've literally gotten two responses, telling me boats were sold. I'm not kidding!

Now either these guys are *really* disinterested in doing their job. Or they get so many emails and phone calls (I've tried both for boats including the Wibo BTW) to no avail. They simply ghost me.

How do you actually get these people's attention?

This is not an excuse for bad service, but the market is really messed up at the moment and the number of boats listed on the listing sites is far greater than the number actually available. It is important when you find a boat you like on the listing site (Yachtworld, Yachtmarket and particularly the less well known ones, to get direct to the broker's site rather than enquire through the on line systems. email direct rather than the enquiry form as many brokers are inundated with enquiries, most of which go nowhere. Quite likely also they might consider an enquiry from The Netherlands for an old cheap boat as not too serious. Brokers typically earn 6-8%, or less than £1000 for the sort of boat you are looking for and the work involved in handling the sale is not much different from a boat costing 10 times as much. I know a number of brokers and they all tell me that selling an old sub £20k boat is often harder work than newer higher priced boats.

If it is any consolation buyers here looking for boats in Europe have exactly the same problems with French, Spanish, Italian, Greek etc brokers - but not Dutch who seem to have the best organised boat sales system in Europe.

Buying a boat is a challenging project, particularly when you have not done it before and not owned a boat, so you don't really know what you want. In your case you are looking at doing what most people do well into their boat owning career, so they have a much clearer idea of what they want and what is possible. There are people who dive straight in - plenty of youtubes about novices who buy an old boat to live on and sail away, but for every one who is actually successful there are maybe 10 who never get there.

Perhaps it would be better to stick close to home and actually go straight to viewing boats that you can afford and buy a boat that looks right and that more importantly is ready to sail. Then get a couple of year's experience before moving closer to what you want. Trying to buy a boat to fit your original set of criteria (the "ideal" boat" at a distance just is not going to work. If you do eventually try and buy outside home territory, the EU (which includes Ireland) is an open market for you and you can buy a boat anywhere that is EU VAT paid and it will have free movement across the bloc. You can visit the UK, but not keep it here longer than 18 months. If you try to import a UK boat into the EU VAT is payable on its market value at the current rate for the state where you first enter.

 

[The Real Flipper]

The Dutch boat market is very good. I assume you've checked Boot Te Koop, OP?

Also Sailboats from 1000 EUR on Facebook.

Thanks I'll spend some time on Facebook. If it isn't working try something new and all that

Yes I have spend quite a lot of time on Boot Te koop, but good deals are at least in my experience very difficult to find. Practically none of the Dutch sailboats from this era of late 70s to mid 80s have ever been re-powered or have ever had standing rigging replaced. And worse, Dutch boats are *still* consistently more expensive than the same or similar sized models for sale in other countries.

This is not an excuse for bad service, but the market is really messed up at the moment and the number of boats listed on the listing sites is far greater than the number actually available. It is important when you find a boat you like on the listing site (Yachtworld, Yachtmarket and particularly the less well known ones, to get direct to the broker's site rather than enquire through the on line systems. email direct rather than the enquiry form as many brokers are inundated with enquiries, most of which go nowhere. Quite likely also they might consider an enquiry from The Netherlands for an old cheap boat as not too serious. Brokers typically earn 6-8%, or less than £1000 for the sort of boat you are looking for and the work involved in handling the sale is not much different from a boat costing 10 times as much. I know a number of brokers and they all tell me that selling an old sub £20k boat is often harder work than newer higher priced boats.

If it is any consolation buyers here looking for boats in Europe have exactly the same problems with French, Spanish, Italian, Greek etc brokers - but not Dutch who seem to have the best organised boat sales system in Europe.

Buying a boat is a challenging project, particularly when you have not done it before and not owned a boat, so you don't really know what you want. In your case you are looking at doing what most people do well into their boat owning career, so they have a much clearer idea of what they want and what is possible. There are people who dive straight in - plenty of youtubes about novices who buy an old boat to live on and sail away, but for every one who is actually successful there are maybe 10 who never get there.

Perhaps it would be better to stick close to home and actually go straight to viewing boats that you can afford and buy a boat that looks right and that more importantly is ready to sail. Then get a couple of year's experience before moving closer to what you want. Trying to buy a boat to fit your original set of criteria (the "ideal" boat" at a distance just is not going to work. If you do eventually try and buy outside home territory, the EU (which includes Ireland) is an open market for you and you can buy a boat anywhere that is EU VAT paid and it will have free movement across the bloc. You can visit the UK, but not keep it here longer than 18 months. If you try to import a UK boat into the EU VAT is payable on its market value at the current rate for the state where you first enter.

OK, well thanks for the tips. I'll try your advice about making direct contacts to brokers, and probably lowering my targets for the first boat. And I'll probably have to buy a boat locally and just roll the dice with original standing rigging and a 50 year old seawater cooled engine. Fingers crossed!

 

[The Real Flipper]

In summary it would seem you might be best off with an EU boat but maybe there are Dutch owners websites for popular Dutch owned boats. If we assume volume is important and perhaps more key than sailing ability then I guess a few motorsailers might be the way to search like an lm27 say . With that beneteau I would be searching out a few other owners by posting a question on that boat eg do beneteau specify model ,sail well/engine issues/osmosis problems etc. Also get hold of any reviews you can find . There are loads around on Berwick,pentland,renown and longbows but maybe a 33 discus etc . Might be a tad pricey I guess.

I have looked at the LM boats and they look nice. Good space for the size. Maybe I can find a deal on one. And funny you should mention the Discus, as that's been on my short list for a second boat for a while now. They have a good seaworthy reputation and I really like the spacious really quality looking interiors. It just looks like a nice space below.

 

[SvenH]

Keep in mind that most boats in the Netherlands primarily live in fresh water, that may change the way they age.

I did not read on why you want to start with a larger boat so unless you really NEED the space, I'd say you are better off starting with a small boat and learn quickly.
You can then even consider a "disposable" boat.
Also keep in mind that it is generally cheaper to buy a good boat than it is to fix up a cheap one. (But you might already be aware of that ; )
You also mentioned a Wibo. These can be well specked and cheap but they may be be hard to sell later on.

 

[The Real Flipper]

Keep in mind that most boats in the Netherlands primarily live in fresh water, that may change the way they age.

I did not read on why you want to start with a larger boat so unless you really NEED the space, I'd say you are better off starting with a small boat and learn quickly.
You can then even consider a "disposable" boat.
Also keep in mind that it is generally cheaper to buy a good boat than it is to fix up a cheap one. (But you might already be aware of that ; )
You also mentioned a Wibo. These can be well specked and cheap but they may be be hard to sell later on.

Well, there have been dikes built around the Ijsselmeer and in South West Netherlands making these regions mostly fresh water today. But many Dutch boats have been sailed extensively to England, France, and on The North Sea etc, and of course it's impossible to tell which. Even if a boat could be 'fresh water guaranteed' we're still talking about almost 50 year old engines and standing rigging. It's a risk! And then there's the price premium for Dutch boats which exists regardless.

Not to beat the hack out of Dutch boats but I really don't like the interiors either. They're deep and they're dark, and almost devoid of natural light. Many British and French boats on the other hand seem to have done a far better job bringing natural light below, making them 'night and day' pun intended more habitable.

BTW I want a larger boat because I want to be able to possibly live aboard. I have sailed some on smaller boats, but I have no night sailing experience or multi day passage making experience.

What do you mean by a disposable boat?

I had considered the Wibo cheap enough that if it's not ideal I could sail it a while and even if I take a loss on selling it won't be too great because it's cheap. But unfortunately it looks like it will be added to the long list of 'impossible to contact the sellers' boats. I did contact them directly.

In the spirit of the great sailors of the past, I shall not be deterred

 

[The Real Flipper]

Couldn't figure out how to edit, just wanted to add that small old Dutch boats are however known for being very seaworthy!
And if I had 10 million+ to spend on a superyacht a Dutch boat would be high if not top of my list ;-)

 

[ashtead]

Jongert maybe ???great boats to sail around at a steady 8knots provided you watch the depth.

 

[The Real Flipper]

Well I was thinking more about an Oceano, but in a pinch I wouldn't mind slumming on a Jongert LOL

Sailing Yacht BLACK PEARL by Oceanco with DynaRig

 

[The Real Flipper]

Sorry for the long post. I found another boat and just had to ask.
What do you folks think of this one?

Link to 1980 Wibo 930:
Used 1980 Van Wijk WIBO 930 | Botentekoop

Data Sheet Wibo 930:
SailboatData.com - WIBO 930 Sailboat

To me it looks pretty neat and tidy for 42 years old.
And personally I find it quite a pretty little boat. I especially like old wood work when it's in good shape.

From prior responses I've decided to stretch the budget with:
Seperett Privy composting heads.
Cheap electric heater on shorepower until I figure something else out.
Skipping a requirement for new engine and standing rigging, since it's not realistic.
I am willing to do work myself to stretch the budget and get going sooner.
And I'm now only looking locally per suggestions.

These choices above will also leave me more budget for maintenance gotchas.

So my concerns: are that it has so little equipment. And I wonder what will be 'must have' purchases?
For example there is no windlass, no autopilot, no boat speed or wind speed instruments, no AIS, and no GPS.
Guess the old guy stayed at the helm, and navigated by stars ;-)

And it's a Thornycroft engine which I've heard little about. And I wonder what to expect regarding parts, maintenance, and reliability?

I've translated the ad to English:

Details
Year- 1980
Make- Van Wijk
Model- WIBO 930
Class- Racer/Cruisers sailboats
Length- 9,30m
Fuel Type- Diesel
Hull Material- Steel
Hull Shape- Other
Engine- Thornycroft
Description
1980 Van Wijk WIBO 930
For sale due to death: Lovely family ship with six berths. From first owner, always well maintained.

Provided with:

• Outside:
  • Anchor
  • Mainsail
  • Furling headsail
  • Storm sail
  • Spray hood (dodger)
  • Sail cover
• Navigation:
  • VHF radio
  • Depth gauge
  • Compass
• Within:
  • Cushions
  • CD player
  • Gas stove
  • Cool box
  • Pans, plates, cutlery

Boat is on the side, ready to apply the antifouling.

Also note: I've attached full size photos below for better viewing.

 

[westernman]

Sorry for the long post. I found another boat and just had to ask.
What do you folks think of this one?

Link to 1980 Wibo 930:
Used 1980 Van Wijk WIBO 930 | Botentekoop

Data Sheet Wibo 930:
SailboatData.com - WIBO 930 Sailboat

To me it looks pretty neat and tidy for 42 years old.
And personally I find it quite a pretty little boat. I especially like old wood work when it's in good shape.

From prior responses I've decided to stretch the budget with:
Seperett Privy composting heads.
Cheap electric heater on shorepower until I figure something else out.
Skipping a requirement for new engine and standing rigging, since it's not realistic.
I am willing to do work myself to stretch the budget and get going sooner.
And I'm now only looking locally per suggestions.

These choices above will also leave me more budget for maintenance gotchas.

So my concerns: are that it has so little equipment. And I wonder what will be 'must have' purchases?
For example there is no windlass, no autopilot, no boat speed or wind speed instruments, no AIS, and no GPS.
Guess the old guy stayed at the helm, and navigated by stars ;-)

And it's a Thornycroft engine which I've heard little about. And I wonder what to expect regarding parts, maintenance, and reliability?

I've translated the ad to English:

Details
Year- 1980
Make- Van Wijk
Model- WIBO 930
Class- Racer/Cruisers sailboats
Length- 9,30m
Fuel Type- Diesel
Hull Material- Steel
Hull Shape- Other
Engine- Thornycroft
Description
1980 Van Wijk WIBO 930
For sale due to death: Lovely family ship with six berths. From first owner, always well maintained.

Provided with:

• Outside:
  • Anchor
  • Mainsail
  • Furling headsail
  • Storm sail
  • Spray hood (dodger)
  • Sail cover
• Navigation:
  • VHF radio
  • Depth gauge
  • Compass
• Within:
  • Cushions
  • CD player
  • Gas stove
  • Cool box
  • Pans, plates, cutlery

Boat is on the side, ready to apply the antifouling.

Also note: I've attached full size photos below for better viewing.

Certainly looks tidy.

However, made from steel. Which can be very easily be rusting away - often from the inside to the outside. And not really a good material choice for a small boat. Probably no black water tank.

Why do you want composting heads??????
A proper marine toilet is a million times more preferable.

 

[The Real Flipper]

Certainly looks tidy.

I know right?
Haven't seen many 20 year old boats look this clean, let alone 42 year old boats...

However, made from steel. Which can be very easily be rusting away - often from the inside to the outside. And not really a good material choice for a small boat. Probably no black water tank.

The steel thing has me wondering why so many powerboats are made of steel, yet sailboats have moved away.
Some say osmosis is a worse problem as the boat has to sit on the hard for several months to dry fully before being repaired, where with steel they can always just weld a new plate in, right now. Of course I have no personal experience so I can't say. It just seems either is a pretty horrible problem to someone on a tight budget.

I'm hoping a good survey will tell if the boat has rust?

Why do you want composting heads??????
A proper marine toilet is a million times more preferable.

It has a marine toilet now, but with no blackwater tank I can't use it in marinas so most of the time it's useless to me. And judging by the cost of adding a black water tank which others have said is perhaps not worth it on a boat of this value, I thought the composting toilet the obvious budget solution. Some even say they prefer composting toilets.

Unfortunately yet again I have no experience from which to base an opinion. Just a tight budget and a strong desire to get offshore. ASAP.

 

[westernman]

I know right?
Haven't seen many 20 year old boats look this clean, let alone 42 year old boats...



The steel thing has me wondering why so many powerboats are made of steel, yet sailboats have moved away.
Some say osmosis is a worse problem as the boat has to sit on the hard for several months to dry fully before being repaired, where with steel they can always just weld a new plate in, right now. Of course I have no personal experience so I can't say. It just seems either is a pretty horrible problem to someone on a tight budget.

I'm hoping a good survey will tell if the boat has rust?



It has a marine toilet now, but with no blackwater tank I can't use it in marinas so most of the time it's useless to me. And judging by the cost of adding a black water tank which others have said is perhaps not worth it on a boat of this value, I thought the composting toilet the obvious budget solution. Some even say they prefer composting toilets.

Unfortunately yet again I have no experience from which to base an opinion. Just a tight budget and a strong desire to get offshore. ASAP.

A composting toilet for a log cabin in the middle of nowhere I can just about understand the logic. You empty it onto the garden.
But at sea??? It just makes no sense to me.

Also they seem to be rather sensitive. You have to have the right kind of crap. Flies can become a serious problem. The only composting toilet I have come across in an American national park was so fly infested that I was scared of my delicate bottom being eaten to the bone. It also stank to high heaven. I crapped behind some bushes instead.