Help !!! Bilge of fin ?

[Equinox]

I expect to be purchasing a yacht over the coming winter of between 26'-29' in length. The areas I would like to cruise around are the British Isles, Channel Islands and North France. The problem is that I'm not quite sure which type of keel would suit me best.

I expect to be mooring my yacht on the East coast so from that point alone I dare say many will suggest a bilge keel would be more suitable. I would also like to know how the sea keeping abilities of bilge and fin keel compare to each other. Finally, what would one suggest is the maximum safe cruising range of a bilge keel yacht of the size I am hoping to purchase.

Many thanks to all that respond !

 

[Guest]

The type of sailing you do and the distances you travel are governed by your own abilities. Many small boats have made extrodinary voyages and many big boats have foundered in our home waters. If you want the best of both worlds why not look at a Southerly with it's swing keel . Good Luck.

 

[samwise]

For East Coast use bilge keel has to be the answer. I have no experience of swing keels, but I prefer to keep things simple.
A bilge keeler may not peform quite as well as a fin and in a seaway you can get slamming which can be unpleasant ( and unnerving until you get used to it.) We have a Sadler 29 bilge keeler and it has never given us any doubts on stability.

 

[Guest]

seakeeping ability is not particularly affected by keel choice so much as overall boat design - and in any case, its almost always the crew that gives way first. if you are going to be based on the east coast, a bilge keel would be an advantage .

best advice is to do lots of sailing in lots of boats with other people before puting your hand in your pocket. there are always more sailors looking for crew than vice versa, and you can then form a sound judgment as to what suits you.

dont just accept the uninformed prejudice of most pundits - give serious thought to a multihull as well as a mono

 

[paulrossall]

I have a Macwester 30 which is at Ramsholt on the River Deben. It draws 1 metre. I certainly find life easier than some of the fin keeled boats, which all tend to draw more, and if most of your sailing is going to be at weekends then draft may become one of the most important criteria when selecting your boat. The boat has under previous ownership been around the Baltic and as far South as Portugal. I would certainly take it to the Med if I did not have to work. How much you have to spend, are you sailing with a load of lads and want to race, is her indoors going, do you have children? There are lots of considerations which will lead you to a certain type of boat and I think the keel choice is unlikely to be the single most inportant consideration. Good Luck. Let us know what you buy.

 

[Equinox]

I've been a Deck Officer in the Merchant Navy for the past 8 years so I am pretty confident I can handle the navigation and seamanship aspects. I've never actually set foot on a yacht before but have wanted to try sailing for some time. How easy or difficult is it to become accustomed to the actually sailing of a yacht, is it something that the general principles can be picked up within a week? I intend to undertake the Day Skippers practical course before making a purchase but should I also do the Coastal Skippers course too?

 

[Equinox]

Thanks for the advice. I have a budget of £15,000 so I was thinking of buying either a Gib'sea 77 or 76. My other choices at present are the Salty Dog and the Cobra 850. I'm not really considering going racing as it was more 2 week cruising I had in mind.

 

[Kathryn]

YES !!! Especially if planning to go to the continent.

 

[tonydyer]

I suggest a bilge keeler for the East Coast.

The Moody 28 is an excellent all-round family boat. It has the combination of good space, safe cruising ability, reasonable speed and stable platform. I owned a 1986 verson for 3 years and can thoroughly recommend it. If you want to race, go for something else.

Similar boats are: Moody 27 (older than the 28) and Westerly GK29.

All boats were avaiable as bilge keelers.

Tony

 

[Guest]

Qualifications for sailing a yacht are only neede outside of the UK and can be covered by more simple means. But all training is good for the soul and also for knowledge etc.

Sailing a boat can be as difficult or has hard as you like ..... cruising not too worried if the sails are optimum, racing where every small tweak counts etc.

Best way is to look around the local Yacht clubs, chat with the memebers ... girls as well as boys - as their opinion is very valid, despite what most 'brawny skippers say'.

The choice of keel will also be touched on when you speak to these people, and you can look around the yards and gauge for yourself what is the most popular ! Bilge Keel normally wins out in the sort of areas that you mention, as there are numerous banks and drying areas ... not suited to long / fin keels. Yes you can fit legs for a long keeler, but who wants the hassle !
Distance and deep sea jobbies - many advocate the long traditional keel, then varying narrowing down to the slender deep fins of racing boats, spattered about with wings etc. Bilge keelers come in two versions ... true bilge keelers where the keels are reasonably in line with the bilge strake at turn of hull and about 25 - 30% hull length, through to the twin keelers where a little deeper as the keels are narrower and normally foil in section. This is an attempt to compromise between the practical bilge keeler and the short fin ....

At the end of the day every keel configuration is a compromise whatever you decide.

I prefer bilge keel to allow me to explore those backwaters, dryi8ng out alongside quays etc. without worrying about lift keels etc.
I also own a lift keel job which I enjoy up little feeder rivers etc. as it draws less than 30 cms when lifted !, but its not so stable when sailing as weight is too high.... but thats this boat and please don't take that for all ....
I also own a fin keeler ... for racing in the Baltics ..... very nice, fast, but I cannot get close to the beach like with the other two and I actually miss the beaching etc., but make up for it with adrenaline rush when close hauled and passing everyone !!!

I was a Deck Officer for 17 years and have sailed yachts for most of my life ... the two compliment each other, I always - rightly or wrongly I don't know - but always felt that I understood things better knowing both sides. But that doesn't excuse some of the things that happened while I was on the bridge !!!! (200,000 dwt tanker - I'm on watch steaming up the channel after lightering for draft .... series of yachts picked out on horizon ... looked like heading for france, I'm proceeding up the shipping lane, keeping an eye on this lot .... VHF radio comes on ... Tanker on bow ... BLAH BLAH BLAH ... I'm racing please keep clear !' .... my reply is unprintable considering that I had a draft of about 65 feet at the time !!!! AND I was in my traffic lane under the watchful eye of the French and UK coastguard !!!!

Needless to say he had short thrift from us !

 

[dickh]

Difficult to answer, I also am on the East Coast, started with a 20' bilge keeler and sailed all over the Thames Estuary going up all the little creeks, rivers etc. but it had poor windward performance. Then had a 23' fin keeler which I had to be more careful with but went much better to windward - now a 27' fin keel which again is good to windward but now often hanker after a bilge keeler so I can explore creeks again and just sit on the mud if need to.
Definately go on a course, and read up as much as you can.
Also consider where you will keep it - a swinging mooring, half tide mooring or marina,

dickh
I'd rather be sailing...

 

[Gunfleet]

Tanker I am racing? That must be some sort of record for brass neck!

 

[Gunfleet]

I agree with Dick. I started with a bilge keeler, living right in the middle of the East Coast, and it does allow you to get a mooring easily and it does allow you to go up creeks and go aground if that's your thing. However, using a bilge keeler doesn't allow you to give up tidal calculations (I know, it's not a problem for you) and they do have one huge disadvantage which is that once you run onto some mud you are on and that's the end of it. With a log/fin keeler you can all sit on one side and come off again. The main reason I changed (apart from standing headroom) was that I was fed up going sideways nearly as much as I went forwards. I've explored most of the northern French coast as well as my home coast and the bilge keeler was getting a bit of a bind on those longer crossings. Your main problem as a deck officer taking up sailing will be (a) where to keep all the Conrad novels and (b) remind yourself not to pick up the phone to ask someone to drop a mooring rope over that bollard. ;-) only kidding. PS I think a Day Skipper shorebased course will drive you mad. 'So COG isn't Course to Steer?' Buy a dayskipper book, read it, then do a five day practical dayskipper.

 

[yachtcharisma]

Sorry, because this keeps on being said in one form or another on these forums. But if you've not actually done much (any?) sailing before, the RYA yachting qualifications may not be the best route for you to pick it up - they are geared much more to teaching seamanship and navigation to those who can already sail. It's my impression that its their dinghy sailing courses which are geared much more towards teaching people what to do with the sails to make the boat go. So if you really are a beginner in terms of sailing, you'll probably learn how to sail much quicker on a dinghy sailing course than on a competent crew course. Dayskipper will certainly assume that you can handle the sailing side of things already, and if you're au fait with plotting courses, tidal calculations, lights and shapes etc from your job will just be teaching you things you already know.

Cheers
Patrick

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Sailing a Corribee
vzone.virgin.net/patrick.fox
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[Gunfleet]

Though I came through that route, I think general advice to learn dinghy sailing is a mistake. Dinghys just don't behave like yachts and most yachtsmen think having the wretched vessel swamped and on its side with the crew in the water an emergency. To a dinghy sailor it's all in a day's fun. Learn dinghy sailing if you want to get wet and cold. You still won't know much about yachting except heaving to, head to wind and how to reef. He can learn that on the first morning of a Daze Kipper Practical course.

 

[yachtcharisma]

Mmm. My comment was more aimed at the content of the courses available than the desirability of a particular route. I may be wrong, but I don't think you learn much of how to sail a boat on the comp crew / dayskipper courses.

Comp crew I haven't done, but there were people doing it on both my dayskipper and coastal skipper courses, and they were certainly taught how to be competent crew, pulling ropes, tying knots, even allowed to hold the tiller for a bit, but they weren't learning how to sail the boat, in terms of deciding for themselves what the sails should be doing etc.

And by the time you start a dayskipper course, that sort of thing is pretty much taken as read. Our instructor told us to head off on a close reach, and the dayskipper hopeful who had to ask "So what do you want me to aim at" ended up with a comp crew cert at the end of the week.

Maybe my experience was unusual, but I don't reckon comp crew / dayskipper are a good way to learn how to sail for the complete beginner. The dinghy courses teach you how to sail a boat. The comp crew course teaches you how to be a crewmember, then dayskipper assumes you can sail and teaches you how to navigate, manouvre, lights and shapes etc. Maybe there's a gap for an RYA "Learn to sail in a keelboat" course??

Cheers
Patrick

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Sailing a Corribee
vzone.virgin.net/patrick.fox
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[Gunfleet]

You're exactly right. A keel boat course is the right thing and there is definitely an RYA keelboat qualification.

 

[billmacfarlane]

I've owned both fin and bilge keel yachts and initially when I started reading your posting I thought fin keel and by the time I read that you sailed fom the East Coast I changed my mind and thought that a bilge keel would be more suitable. There is also a third alternative. Do you plan to keep the boat on a drying mooring on the East Coast ? If so the answer is bilge. What's the problem with crossing the Channel in a bilge keel yacht ? Thousands of boats do it every year and as far as I know there isn't one who's found it a problem . In France what style of cruising do you plan to do ? Creek crawl ? Anchor ? Marina hop ? Explore some of the shallower Brittany and Normandy harbours ? If you plan to do the latter there are some French designs that have a twin rudder/lifting keel arrangement that will dry upright for an overnight stop but they're not really designed for drying moorings. Be aware that one of the drawbacks of bilge keel boats is that the weather keel can slam when sailing hard on the wind. Some designs are worse than others - Hunters are probably the best. My old Sadler was very prone to it and I found it very distracting. If you look at the twin rudder/lifting keel option have a look at the First 29 or 305. For twins I'd go for a Hunter or Westerly Konsort or Fulmar.

 

[Equinox]

I sympathise with yachties a great deal! The number of times I've been through the Channel and seen little yachts trying to make a mad dash across while ships are bearing down on them at speed. I really don't know how yachtsmen can manage without radar, it's such a vital nav aid to merchant ships when navigating in congested waters.

I think I'll probably end up going for a bilge keeler as the only point I had against them at first was that I thought their cruising range might be restricted. As I now know, that is not the case.

Once I get my yacht, how easy is it to find crew at a local yacht club? In general are there normally plenty of willing volunteers?

 

[Guest]

Well you have to give him 10 out of 10 for sheer bravado !