Help – restored headlinings may have shrunk!

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jcpa

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I’m refitting the foam backed vinyl headlinings in my front cabin. The previous owner had done a bodge job with some new foam, and they were hanging down again, but I didn’t notice if they had already shrunk for him.

Anyway, I’ve cleaned up the inner surface of the hull - back to clean GRP (no glue/foam remnants) - and fitted the Hawkehouse double sided sticky backed foam (plastic still covering the top sticky layer!). Then I’ve cleaned the back of the vinyl linings (using “face off” discs in a battery drill) to remove the vast majority of the old glue (they are just a little bit tacky to touch in places, but with no obvious glue patches). The linings did get a bit hot at times doing this (friction burns), but if anything I thought they would have stretched a bit.

But when I offer up the cleaned lining pieces to the new foam (it grips lightly to the plastic covering over the sticky surface), I find they are about 5% smaller in each direction than they need to be – the neighbouring pieces will not meet, let alone slightly overlap. What has happened?

Have the headlinings really shrunk (in which case I need new ones), or must I stretch them hard when I fit them properly (having removed those plastic cover sheets)? Anyone who has used the double sided foam may that (1) you get no second chances to reposition the linings, and(2) it is all too easy to pull the glue layer (in a sheet) off the foam – even when peeling off the plastic cover sheet . I’m not convinced I could stretch the vinyl sufficiently without pulling both it and the glue layer off the foam – and that would but the job right back to square one. Damn!

Is it time to admit defeat, and spend the money to get new linings made to fit?
 
jcpa said:
I’m refitting the foam backed vinyl headlinings in my front cabin. The previous owner had done a bodge job with some new foam, and they were hanging down again, but I didn’t notice if they had already shrunk for him.

Anyway, I’ve cleaned up the inner surface of the hull - back to clean GRP (no glue/foam remnants) - and fitted the Hawkehouse double sided sticky backed foam (plastic still covering the top sticky layer!). Then I’ve cleaned the back of the vinyl linings (using “face off” discs in a battery drill) to remove the vast majority of the old glue (they are just a little bit tacky to touch in places, but with no obvious glue patches). The linings did get a bit hot at times doing this (friction burns), but if anything I thought they would have stretched a bit.

But when I offer up the cleaned lining pieces to the new foam (it grips lightly to the plastic covering over the sticky surface), I find they are about 5% smaller in each direction than they need to be – the neighbouring pieces will not meet, let alone slightly overlap. What has happened?

Have the headlinings really shrunk (in which case I need new ones), or must I stretch them hard when I fit them properly (having removed those plastic cover sheets)? Anyone who has used the double sided foam may that (1) you get no second chances to reposition the linings, and(2) it is all too easy to pull the glue layer (in a sheet) off the foam – even when peeling off the plastic cover sheet . I’m not convinced I could stretch the vinyl sufficiently without pulling both it and the glue layer off the foam – and that would but the job right back to square one. Damn!

Is it time to admit defeat, and spend the money to get new linings made to fit?
Click to expand...

You could try shrinking your boat by boiling it but the more I hear about these ridiculous headlinings & the lengths people will go to to replace them the more I think a coat of paint is the answer.
Sorry if this is not constructive but maybe like skin fittings made of brass builders that use them should be vilified.
 
Artex

jcpa said:
Yes, I suggested painting - at least until the winter when I can do a better job, but SWMBO thought it was tacky!
Click to expand...

Don,t laugh but I coated the cabin sides of my boat with a stippled layer of ready mixed Artex and then coated it with gloss about 5 years ago and still looks as good as new.

Also glued non foam vinyl to 6 mm ply screwed to battons glassed to roof and that looks ok as well.

Would never attempt to use high solvent loaded glues to fix vinyl to hull or cabin side again as I damaged my liver 30 years ago fitting out a boat from scratch. Ended up in hospital for a month and unable to work for 4 months, lost two stone and was yellow from head to toe.

PS High solvent glue which damaged my liver was Thixofix. I used PVA type on present boat onto ply.
 
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Why not turn a necessity into a virtue? You now have templates for new vinyl albeit adding 3cm all round. It's a once in 20yr job and will uphold resale value.
 
An attempt at a more constructive response.
The old headlinings are useful for only one purpose, that is as initial templates for cutting new ones. As I understand you, the double sided adhesive foam is already in place with the protective film still over the top (bottom?) surface. I know it will be difficult and will probably involve two friendly people lying on their backs to handle them, but offer each piece up and with a marker note how far they need to be extended at close intervals along every edge. You can then cut the new vinyl slightly over size. With a very sharp modelling knife cut the protective layer over the sticky foam already in place, leaving a protected margin of a couple of inches along every edge. Working outward from the centre, smoothing and stetching carefully as you go, carefully position the first panel of vinyl, this is where you will need at least 4 hands. You want to apply only sufficient tension to avoid wrinkles. Repeat with the adjoining panels. All the vinyl panels will now be in position but with unattached overlapping edges. You can opt to trim them to a butt joint, a small (say 10mm.) overlap is safer but not as neat and will require good adhesive at the overlap. Remove the strips of protective stuff to expose the sticky foam around the edges and begin slowly and carefully to trim each panel to meet accurately. If you have very deep concave hollows you may have to cut a slit but use the same technique to finish the joints. Cut too little, rather than too much, until each joint is perfect. An Ikea flexible plastic chopping board or similar is useful to slip behind the stuff when you are cutting as it is thin and bendy to profile but stiff enough to press on with a sharp blade. Use a red one as you are almost certain to nick a finger. (the green ones are for veggies)
It is possible to cut with scissors but you must accurately mark, use masking tape over the area to keep the marks of the sheet.
It is a long time since I did this and I was applying directly to the GRP without the luxury of foam, I have used a lining product called 'mural mousse'? which is, or was a more delicate foam vinyl about 3-4mm thick. Unlike vinyl sheet it stretched into shapes well and therefore needed less joints in corners etc. but if you were careless it was much easier to tear.
Note I am not a professional but I used to be involved with fitting out bare mouldings in the distant past when it was possible, if one responds favour his advice.
 
Corners.

jcpa said:
I’m refitting the foam backed vinyl headlinings in my front cabin. The previous owner had done a bodge job with some new foam, and they were hanging down again, but I didn’t notice if they had already shrunk for him.

Anyway, I’ve cleaned up the inner surface of the hull - back to clean GRP (no glue/foam remnants) - and fitted the Hawkehouse double sided sticky backed foam (plastic still covering the top sticky layer!). Then I’ve cleaned the back of the vinyl linings (using “face off” discs in a battery drill) to remove the vast majority of the old glue (they are just a little bit tacky to touch in places, but with no obvious glue patches). The linings did get a bit hot at times doing this (friction burns), but if anything I thought they would have stretched a bit.

But when I offer up the cleaned lining pieces to the new foam (it grips lightly to the plastic covering over the sticky surface), I find they are about 5% smaller in each direction than they need to be – the neighbouring pieces will not meet, let alone slightly overlap. What has happened?

Have the headlinings really shrunk (in which case I need new ones), or must I stretch them hard when I fit them properly (having removed those plastic cover sheets)? Anyone who has used the double sided foam may that (1) you get no second chances to reposition the linings, and(2) it is all too easy to pull the glue layer (in a sheet) off the foam – even when peeling off the plastic cover sheet . I’m not convinced I could stretch the vinyl sufficiently without pulling both it and the glue layer off the foam – and that would but the job right back to square one. Damn!

Is it time to admit defeat, and spend the money to get new linings made to fit?
Click to expand...

Is it possible to get some lining which matches your existing material and use carpet double sided tape to stick strips to fill in the corners.
 
Thanks all

I found the comment “apply only sufficient tension to avoid wrinkles” the most telling. I would have to stretch them much more than that to get the linings to fit. So thanks, you have confirmed my fear that I will have to replace some parts at least. And I will probably need extra hands to help me fit them.

Re patching the corners with vinyl strips, I'm told double sided tape won't stick to vinyl, and certainly my duck tape won't.

This job was meant to be a relatively quick tidying-up job (ha-ha!), just to reduce the grunge factor and entice the family onto the boat this summer. Depending on how it went (re-using the old liners), I would then do the other cabins and maybe install some wardrobe lockers next winter. SWMBO was dubious – wanted me to replace the vinyl with carpet.

So can anyone help me choose? – Do I make do and mend, go for all new vinyl (probably the longest/costliest option), or would the sticky backed foam support some lightweight carpet?

If I continue with the vinyl, there are 4 main pieces (each hull side – with storage pockets, main ceiling, and sloping ceiling under the anchor locker), all with hemmed edges, that were meant to lap over two smaller ceiling pieces under the side decks. Installation starts with the small pieces, but they need to be placed carefully so the bigger pieces do indeed reach them without any gaps – and that’s my current problem. I might be able just to make up bigger versions of these smaller pieces, but I would want to find a close match of colour/texture, and I would have to be sure the other pieces would fit adequately. The hull side pieces originally lapped round by 5cms at the top, bottom, bulkhead and bow, and there are cut-outs in their edges so they can be smoothed round the corners. With shrinkage, these cutouts are in the wrong places, and would need to be concealed (the bottom edges would be under the matresses, but the top edges would be more visible. The piece under the anchor locker goes on last, and seems to be a really tight fit now. If I get the first small pieces placed correctly it will probably be OK, but I won’t know until the end – no pressure then!

I’d welcome any further comments, especially on using carpet.
 
I presume you have had a look at the Hawke House website, (hawkehouse.co.uk)they are selling vinyl at about £15 and mural mousse for less than £10. The vinyl will be more durable than the mural mousse if subject to abrasion but the latter is a bit easier to fit to shape and to trim. Both are washable and both would be much more secure than carpet, if you buy a suitable type of water resistant synthetic short pile carpet like Flotex it will be more expensive anyway. Get them to send you some samples and get their advice on what to use and how to finish it. I would not trust the foam adhesive to support the weight of carpet long time.
Surely worth taking the care to finish it well whether you intend to keep the boat or sell it.

I have no objection to carpet for hull lining as long as the right stuff is used stuck in the right way, and many reputable builders like Marine Projects were happy to use it in this area on long production runs, I just regard using it as a headlining as a step too far.
 
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Working with these linings is a terrible business. The bits that are glued onto ply panels then screwed in place are OK to work with, you can do it outside where the vapours from the glue disappear on the breeze rather than destroying your liver.

On my previous boat, a Westerly Storm, I struggled through the first few years, then bit the bullet and had a local East Coast firm come and redo the whole saloon the price was high, the quality poor and the project management abysmal (completed 2 months after promised date). Next year, I looked around for alternative local people to do the fore cabin, the aft cabin and the one panel in the heads, but found none so reluctantly went back to the same firm. The proprietor came and gave a quotation, but when his man turned up a couple of months later, he said it couldn't be done. It took me a further 3 months to get my 500 pounds deposit back! So the droopy linings had to last aother season.

The next autumn, in desparation, I called a chap called Roger Nantais, who lives near Poole and used to work for Westerly, for a quotation - I was dreading the thought of travel and acomodation costs on top of the work. Roger came back within a couple of days and gave me a price little more than the cost of buying the relevant kits of precut linings from Hawke House. When I asked about travel and accomodation, he said he had included for travel and would stay with family local to my boat. I accepted his offer immediately. We set a date and he said it would take 5 days.

I went to meet him the morning he started, he brought with him all the necessary pieces of lining, cut to size and sewn together where necessary, a compressor and spray gun for applying the glue a moonstrous air moving fan with ducting to extract the vapour and of course respiratory protection. He asked if I would return on the final day to check the work, of course I agreed.

At the end of the 3rd day, he called to say the job was going very well and he expected to finish in 4 days, if I could turn up before dark, to inspect. When I arrived, the cabins he had done looked perfect. He just asked me to hold a screwdriver in the cockpit to finish replacing the aft cabin window. He also pointed out to me some remedial work he had done on the local contractor's work in the saloon. When I asked what charge for this, he said none, as he had finished a day ahead. I was happy to give him a cheque there and then, and included a bonus for the high standard of service.

I kept that yacht another 2 seasons and Roger's work looked as good as new on the day I sold her.

At the very least, it's worth getting a quotation:

Roger Nantais 01202 849339/ 07970440794 email rogernantais@talktalk.net

I have no connection with Roger Nantais other than as a very satisfied customer on that one occasion, but I am happy to recommend his services to anyone who is struggling with vinyl head linings.
 
Thanks again Quandary, and yes I have discussed my problems with Hawke House several times - face to face! I only found my shrinkage problems on Friday evening, and as they close over the week end, I have not been able to discuss this with them yet. In the meantime I hoped some YBW forum members could offer advice, and I am glad to get as many opinions as possible.

So thanks for the comments on carpet. I was only going to consider carpet if refurbishing the old vinyl didn't look good, and I hadn't really thought about the ceiling. In fact, my saloon ceiling is currently vinyl covered by 4mm ply, and I could do something similar in the front cabin if I had to. I'm tending to think I will try replacing the small lining pieces I described in my previous post with slightly bigger pieces, and see how that works - I think Hawke House have some vinyl of similar character, but I'll check what they think anyway.

Meanwhile, thanks again for your help.
 
I've always thought the Sadler style interior lining to my boat to be a real PITA. After reading this, I'm coming to a different view.
 
Doh!

I've been a bit slow!

I've just realised I don't have to START by fitting the position-critical, underneath, but overall relatively unimportant, small pieces. I should do it in reverse, starting with the critical top pieces, but not sticking down their edges (by not peeling the sticky backed foam from there - yes, I know that is what Quandary said). That way I can fit the next piece underneath (similarly not sticking any edges for pieces further underneath), making sure there will be no gaps with the top piece before goingback to do the edges. By the time I come to the lowest piece, I will see exactly how big a new piece I will need. I may need to put a small patch in the very prow - below the anchor locker (if I can't stretch the long hull side pieces enough), but I can probably think of something to disguise that - even a cushion!

I have just been fixated on having to do the underneath pieces first - comes with thinking of computer graphics.

Thanks all
 
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