He Won!

Intellectually challenged people at uni

If we stopped the ridiculous charade of sending large numbers of intellectually challenged people to uni and instead gave them a training in a skill that led to earning a living and also generated wealth and productivity for the world there would be cash to spare to send the bright, gifted academics to uni with no fees. Most of the courses at the old Polytechnics are garbage. We have a far higher ratio of kids going to uni than any other European country and one of the most uneducated, ineffectual workforces. QED

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Re: West Lothian question

According to my N/paper 46 Scottish MP's voted with the Government last night even though there is to be no top up fees in Scotland.

Whats all that about?

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Re: Intellectually challenged people at uni

>Most of the courses at the old Polytechnics are garbage. <
Really?
My wife, a P L at one of the old Polys would be interested to know that, but I don't think I want to be the one to tell her,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

IanW

<hr width=100% size=1>Vertue 203, Patience
 
Re: Intellectually challenged people at uni

there is the mechanism in place for the more vocational courses - the Colleges of Further Education. Having just started some part time lecturing at our local college, one is left with the impression that this sector is the cinderella of the education system.

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Re: West Lothian question

Para

According to the Herald this morning:

Against: 21

For: 46

Abstensions: 4

This means that 46 Labour MPs should explain why they voted to support a Bill that has no direct affect within the Constiuency that they represent.

Confused? I am.

Donald

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Re: boss swap

Boss swap last night
the kid who started on the shop floor and was now works manager was infinitely more capable than his boss ( who had been to College in the US then army)

answer
by them a broom and send them out
or vocational degrees
i think that many of the non vocational degrees are a waste of time and just stave of the career decision but leave them less qualified to do anything


<hr width=100% size=1>My wife wanted tender treatment, so i stowed her whilst at sea
 
Re: boss swap

We all know that this country needs more doctors. Uni education for doctors and dentists is 6 years. Consider their debts when they leave. Does that encourage further would-be medics to take up the call?
Secondly, what about those with a UK uni education who then sell their talents abroad on graduation. That should be a tough debt to collect.

<hr width=100% size=1>I never make the same mistake twice. I always make new ones.
 
Re: Ineffectual workforce?

Course, it could be argued that the reason why we have such is that too few of our current workers had the opportunity to go to university....It was only a few years ago that we had the highest proportion of people leaving school before 18 of any EU country.

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Re: West Lothian question

hmm .. yes 46 it is ... McFall will be aware that fees will not be deferred in this way for Scottish students, leaving them with a bill of several thousand pounds before they even get to an english university ....


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Yet another alternative

I cannot understand how the gov got themselves in such a sweat.

Most of those opposed to the bill were opposed cos it implied that you will only be able to buy the graduate education you can afford.

I suggest that if they had decoupled the fees paid by the students from the courses, this substantial opposition would have (quite rightly) been dissipated. By this I mean that students pay a fixed fee, regardless of university or course. These fees go into the University Funding Pool (UFP). The Universities, and the courses they are offering, get graded, and their top-up funding from the UFP is on the basis of their grades. Under this scheme, courses like Advanced Political Correctness would be low-grade, shortage areas like physics and maths high-grade, plus grading based on quality of course delivery - assessed by something like the old CNAA.

Remember this whole thing is about top-up funding, the basic funding of FE is made by government allocation, as already.

Don't hang me on detail, just on the principle.

The obvious flaw is that students choice would be limited by their Alevels, and there would only be so many Media Studies places, as that subject might not attract much funding (grading would be affected directly by perceived shortage areas, so medical, nursing, teaching could be made much more attractive).

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all
 
Re: no, re boss swap

um, the answer for the uk would be to get the freebie uni education, then move abroad and stuff yer poxy repayments.

Universally free or universally free or pay-later uni education, universal free medicare, universal penisons are all easily accessible by eligible or vaguley non-eligible peeps a 50 quid plane ride away. So, get the degree, then get a nice job in the US and no repayments, tee hee. Or, if you want to do a degree for £0, go to france. Or , if you want to have free medicare, live cheap in Spain and return home for a pacemaker checkup every year or so. My dad's done 2 of these already the git. Mind you i have finally elminated income tax from my life so stuffem...


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It is indeed

One of the most regressive things done by our previous Conservative government (with more than an eye to PC) was to force our polytechnics to become universities.Before that they were doing an effective job of efficiently turning out vocational-trained graduates.
This left the tertiary colleges high and dry, neither fish flesh nor good red herring.

My daughter is in academic management in one of the Russell group universities and they are being starved of cash to do research, or adequately train graduates, never mind undergraduates. She is frequently head-hunted by American technical universities such as Caltech and MIT at x3 the salary she can get in her current Reader/head of group role

Money had to be found for the universities who have been caught in the double whammy of near doubled student numbers and static incomes.
As a result of the treasury flatly refusing to increase funding for the university sector the only way left was to increase fees, most equitably to those who would benefit from increased earning power as the result of having a degree.

The most significant response was that of the leader of the opposition who true to his professional instincts shrewdly aimed a blow at the PMs lower stomach - it's about winning not principle.

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Re: Ineffectual workforce?

I am super-wary of these statistics. Aren't you? One minute we're in the G7 yet prior to the 97 election we're 37th. Suddenly we're fab again. Oh, apart from uni grads, when tsk we are way way way behind. Yet according to some other sources, we aren't, and we're miles short of vocational training such that plumbers get paid so much you can't keep a plumbing teacher at all. Not at all sure we are comparing like with like. At the highest level, UK uni and (non-state) secondary education is much sought-after world-wide.

Separately, related a bit, i do wish we had had old etonian like Hurd D. pulling rank on the nutters formerly in set 4 or the Remove, now in charge of foreign affairs in minor asian/arab country, thus avoiding silly military action. Much better than state school nerks making comparisons with Hitler, copying out the intelligence notes a bit different, and greasing up to the well-spoken ex-Wellington boneheads who want some war action and nice guns cos they're a bit bored ...

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Re: were they forced?

the headlong rush of polys to become unis seemed so quick that there seemed to be some huge inducement to do so. They seem to be paid per student rather than have a more fixed grant. Something must have changed to gettem to encourage so many to university rather than refuse entrance as so many seemed to do say 20 years ago...

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The situation is very similar here in NZ. My generation had its university education paid for by the taxpayer. Today most students have a large loan.

There has been a push lately for more youngsters to take on trade training , pointing out that they can earn good incomes once qualified without the burden of a student loan to pay back. There is a current shortage of skilled tradespeople in all sectors, hence high wages.
Anybody paid a plumbing bill lately?

There have been a couple of studies that tracked the incomes of graduates versus tradespeople. Excluding top flight professionals , the average degree holder took a surprisingly long time to draw equal with the tradesperson. Top tradespeople who owned their own businesses were sometimes into serious money, but by then of course they were more businessmen than workers.

I think status in the eyes of Mum and Dad can have a lot to do with whether kids attend university.

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