He Won!

[poter]

Boy am I glad my lads finished with Uni.

Even so it still cost around £287,000 including interest for his life, & thats after tax!

Who would have kids today? they will cost a small 40 footer'

poter



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[tillergirl]

Now I don't want to mistaken for a supporter of TB or even top up fees but am I alone in being worried about the effect of the media in all this. They have hyped this up to such an extent that it became a vote of confidence in TB and his back benchers had to support him even if it meant with ill grace. The problem is if the govt cannot lose a vote without it being seen as a sack the PM thing, then Parliament will never do its job and bring moderation and sense to new legislation. There ought to be nothing wrong with a govt losing a vote or two (in the Commons) now and then - provided of course they take note and genuinely amend the legislation.



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[sailorman]

the media hype-up everything, wheres the minus 14 deg weather forcast last week

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[Sailfree]

I am a person who did his degree 30 years ago but at that time married with two children to support. Paid for it by repairing and respraying cars but still got into massive debt.
Please forgive my narrow viewpoint but if students have to pay for it they may 1) appreciate a degree more 2) Work harder 3) Choose a degree that would enable them to commence a well paid career/profession.
If all this results in my not having to pay more tax for students to have an alcholic 3 years studying an obscure subject that has little relevance to future employability I am happy!
Only expressing a personal opinion and definately not trying to support this government. I find most debates are in reality always about why others should pay for what they want to do.
When are people going to take responsibility for themselves?
I will now duck!

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[TheBoatman]

God Help Us, No Me

I have 3 kids.

The first went though uni, I paid for everything.

The second went through and I paid everything + a thousand quid a year increasing by £25 / year.

The third is about to go (Oct) and I will have to pay all what Tony is advocating on top of the normal living expenses.

As a "normal middle England father" I couldn't see any of my kids ending their course owing £30 grand+. I feel privilaged that I never went to uni but my kids are bright enough to get there under their own steam. My last kid (daughter) is very bright and wants to be a barrister but it fills me with dread that she may fail and be left with such huge depts that they will hang over her for many years to come.
On another point, if every uni student has to carry a dept of £30K how is the country as a whole going to finance this burdon?

I dispair?

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[Shanty]

I also went through university a bit over 30 years ago. I was supported by my parent's generation through taxation. My son will, hopefully, be going to university in the near future. I expect to support him, if not through taxation, then directly.

Education is a gift from our parents that we are duty bound to pass on to our children. If we try to weasel out of this, we diminish our own humanity.


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[beancounter]

But if a government (of any colour) amends a policy following a debate, Her Majesty's loyal opposition (and their section of the media) will lay into the goverment as being weak, having done a U-turn, etc...If the government refuse to change a policy, then the response will be that they are arrogant, out of touch etc
It restores your faith in the political system, doesn't it......

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[zefender]

Re: God Help Us, No Me

I don't think you'll have to pay what "Tony is advocating" until 2006

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[beancounter]

Re: I\'ll join you in ducking..

Unless I missed it in all the hoohaa, noone opposed to higher fees seems to have propsed a concrete alternative? My son has just finished Uni, and my daughter is in her first year - I don't believe that increasing taxation on people with no children to support my kids going through Uni is an equitable solution.
In order to avoid exacerbating the current situation of under funded and over-regulated higher education, why not eliminate this target of 50% of the relevant age group "benefitting" from higher education? Why 50%? Has anyone questioned employers to find out whether this proportion of graduates is necessary for their requirements? (Some research published in the Economist last week suggests that employers, particularly in the Service sector, are placing less emphasis on degrees, and more on social and inter-personal skills). Fewer students = more funding available per student.

(Gets off soap box and dons tin helmet and flak jacket....)

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[Twister_Ken]

An alternative

All university graduates (not just those 'from 2006 on') pay an extra 1p in the £ income tax.

Incidentally, my daughter, currently at a 'top' university, reckons that most of her lecturers resent teaching and get off on research. She asks why undergrads should pay to further their professors' academic credentials and abilities to pull down honorariums from outside bodies.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[tcm]

um, the solutions would seem to be either fewer students, or that the same (larger) number of students pay, or that taxes increase to fund the payments. Last nights vote only covers (if it goes through) a third of the costs.

The situation seems to have arisen since alevels etc became easier, and there's a wall of students now wanting higher education. I interviewed someone with a 2:1 in English the other day who habitually said "somethink". Three "A's" seems quite normal these days - twenty+ years ago it needed utter focus to achieve and the local newspaper came round.

I am recommending that my kids take the harder options which might require more work but will reap the rewards - and become plumbers.



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[Aja]

I will be e-mailing a certain J McFall (Lab - Dumbarton) as to what his specific interest was in this Bill.

I have finished supporting one graduate in Fine Art (Sculpture) and are in the process of support for the second in English. Both at Scottish Universities.

Jack McConnell - leader of Labour in Scotland has insisted that there will be no 'Top-up fees' whilst he is in charge.

How does this all hang together? Its a mess.

Donald

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[bigmart]

Re: I\'ll join you in ducking..

There are several arguments that hold water here. The one I favour is that investing in the education, of future citizens of this country, will add to the wealth & ability, of this country, to weather future economic storms. Its the same argument as can be offered regarding Light Dues & Trinity House. The goods imported into this country are for the benfit of every citizen & therefore Light Dues should be paid from General Taxation. Same for Higher education the benfit, ultimately, is for everyone so everyone should pay.

Ever since Maggie Thatcher ruined the moral fiber of this country & made it socially acceptable for personal greed greed to be the norm, successive Governments have been obsessed with lowering the headline rate of taxation & raising funding through back door taxation of minorities who cannot, effectively argue their case against the might of government.

Just ask yourself. Why are British motorists persecuted, with high Fuel Tax, Speed Cameras set to raise money rather than save lives & Congestion Charges where we are charged twice (Road Tax & Congestion Charge) to drive on the same piece of road?

The last point that seems to have been forgotten is that the "Liar" promised that he wouldn't do it, in the manifesto that he was elected to power on. I hope he gets his come uppance at the next election but the alternatives fill me with fear. Lets get rid of these media driven incompetants & find a party that tells the truth & applies policies that look after our future & not designed to curry favour at the next election.

There thats my soap box.

Martin

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[snowleopard]

OK, so what next...

now the principle is firmly established that the individual who receives the benefit of the education is the one who pays for it rather than the nation as a whole, let's go the whole hog.

70% of council taxes go to pay for education. let that part be paid by people who have children in school so the rest of us can get a 70% reduction.

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[beancounter]

Re: OK, so what next...

I think the difference 'twixt the two is that schooling is compulsory, whereas higher education is not.

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[ParaHandy]

Re: West Lothian question

there were 13 of them in total ... do wonder what they've got to say for themselves ...

mess indeed ...

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[Twister_Ken]

Re: West Lothian question

>do wonder what they've got to say for themselves<

Probably "Well dear, I'll be getting a junior minister's job at ra next reshuffle"

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[ParaHandy]

Re: West Lothian question

doubt westminster could put up with another of the calibre of "oh [ah em!], it's health" Read?

and how long before the eejit foot & mouth expert becomes Lord Nick Brown I wonder?
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[pugwash]

Let \'em work

Most of us who are old codgers (meaning you nearly always have to be oldish if not codgerish to buy a boat) worked our way through apprenticeships or universities in the old days. I have put four kids through schools and universities and though they tried at intervals to get good part-time work it was difficult.


I agree with Sailfree. The mistake we make is failure to utilise students as a work force and to create opportunities for them to earn money. Most kids in the US and other westerncountries pay their way through uni, just as Sailfree spray-painted cars. How many students now facing top-up fees could be out there in the winter weekends antifouling boats for a few quid an hour? Heaps.


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[mikesharp]

I think that the push and the pull into university is much to do with the fact that trade training is mainly a thing of the past and there is little alternative between getting a degree which attracts most employers or going straight into the mundane or dead end jobs. When I left school (inner London Central school in the late 50s) the main drive on further education was to an apprentiship for the technically able or an office job with day release or evening school to gain work related skills for us desk bound. I do not recall any of my school mates even talking about university let alone considering that as a choice.
There does appear to be a bit of playing around in recent years on skill training but until the majority of employers take their share of the responsibility for producing a trained workforce the push to attend university will grow.
As a user of successful graduates in my working days, I was continually disappointed with the quality of the finished article. Lack of common sense, abysmal numeracy and narrowness of thought were quite normal and the first year of employment was usually spent teaching them the kind of thing we learnt at age 16 in our first job.


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