Have you had a letter from HMRC?

[rallyveteran]

Why have a CI port of registry?

So what is the point of a Jersey or Guernsey registration if you are living and boating in the UK? Is it just pose value, or is there some deeper reason I am missing?

When I registered my boat it was cheaper to get Part 1 Registration in Guernsey than in the UK plus you still got a cloth covered registration document rather than a plasticified bit of A4. No effect on tax status.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Which means that the Harbourmaster is bound by the constraints of the Data Protection Act.

Unfortunately they thought of that - HMRC, HM Constabulary and, needless to say, countless interfering busybodies can get at pretty much whatever they want for "the purposes of taxation and the the detection and avoidance of crime" or something, I believe the wording is.

Strangely enough I believe MP's are exempt the DPA as well - who'd have thought it??

 

[ian38_39]

My MD has just recevied a similar letter from HMRC He berths his Gurnesey registered Princess 65 in Portsmouth and regularly cruises to Yarmouth so it may be they are targeting Channel Island registered boats.

Ian

 

[jfm]

Which means that the Harbourmaster is bound by the constraints of the Data Protection Act. It would be fascinating to know what HMRC said to the Harbour Office to persuade the staff to part with personal information. And it would be even more fascinating to know whether it was actually true, or whether it was a typical civil service paraphrase of the law that conveniently misses out anything that limits their powers.

Because a growing proportion of the public are becoming increasingly pissed off with an overbearing bureaucracy. Being english, we don't go round cutting their heads off, or lining them up against walls and shooting them. Nor do we fill our streets with cabbages or our harbours with fishing boats. We just let them get away with it.

No it doesn't and nor should it make any difference. Time was when the accuser had to prove his case. Only in a police state is it up to the innocent to prove their innocence.

Well said Tim on all of that

Eastermaid, I think you miss the point above. The discussion above isn't about how not to do it, for the sake of it. It's mostly about not giving hmrc the VAT papers to see how they react. So as to learn. The desire to learn is based 100pc on wanting to help those who have VAT paid boats but not a VAT invoice, qv a thousand earlier VAT threads on this forum

 

[Observer]

AFAIK an owner registers the boat where it is most convenient to him (her?) - mine is Poole registered. When the boat is sold on, the next & subsequent owners transfer the registration into their own name. So, if the boat was originally bought by a CI resident, it is logical it would be CI registered. Subsequent purchasers are unlikely to attempt to cancel the existing registration & reregister elsewhere - just far too much hassle & cost.

To be pedantic, your boat is not "registered in Poole". It is registered in the UK but you have nominated Poole as the "port of choice" associated with the registration. AFAIK, the port of choice has absolutely zero legal effect on anything. It can be changed, for any reason or no reason, without affecting the UK registry status. The port of choice can be any one of a large(ish) number of places listed on the MCGA registration guide. How and why the 'available' ports came to be so, I have no idea.

 

[mjf]

I am amazed that Yarmouth HM has the address of visitors.

I have been to I would say all Solent marinas over the past few years and never once been asked for name and address. Not at the time of pre booking, once moored and paying up . Not once - never.

Only thing I can think of is fuelling at yarmouth and taking the 60/40 - The fuel is a HM jobbie there so maybe might ask for this info.


jfm, I had never considered the EU/EC issue wrt IOM and Monaco. It did occur to me when I read Magnums Tunisia post that it might be easier to pop to MC for a day or even truck the boat to a Swiss lake for a w/e.... Clearly MC option is a non starter - what about CH?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Not necessarily. They could have just assumed:
1) CI flag = no VAT paid (most likely, though not in this case)
2) UK owner = VAT collectable
enuff for an enquiry, from their perspective.
Re. HM involvment, I agree that it seems a nonsense, but we shouldn't forget that from the fiscal authorities' viewpoint harbours are also a target, not just boaters...

Sorry to be pedantic but there is no such thing as a CI flag, only CI registry and you can choose the port name displayed on the transom. My boat is Guernsey registered but we fly the UK red ensign and I chose London as the port. So actually there is no way of knowing for sure whether a boat is CI registered just by looking at the outside
Also it is not correct to say that CI flag or CI resident means that no VAT is payable. CI residents can take a boat into the EU from the CI for a limited period only after which VAT becomes due

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

I am amazed that Yarmouth HM has the address of visitors.

I have been to I would say all Solent marinas over the past few years and never once been asked for name and address. Not at the time of pre booking, once moored and paying up . Not once - never.

Only thing I can think of is fuelling at yarmouth and taking the 60/40 - The fuel is a HM jobbie there so maybe might ask for this info.

If you book online with Yarmouth you have to register first, again online - and that's where all your details are supplied. At both Weymouth and East Cowes this summer we've been asked for address details as well.

I just looked at the registration email from Yarmouth. It says 'Your details will not be passed on to any other organisation.'...

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Sorry to be pedantic but there is no such thing as a CI flag, only CI registry and you can choose the port name displayed on the transom. My boat is Guernsey registered but we fly the UK red ensign and I chose London as the port. So actually there is no way of knowing for sure whether a boat is CI registered just by looking at the outside
Also it is not correct to say that CI flag or CI resident means that no VAT is payable. CI residents can take a boat into the EU from the CI for a limited period only after which VAT becomes due

I'd be interested to hear more about this. When we went through the ownership transfer process with the Guernsey registry last year, they were pretty clear that the boat needs to be marked with 'GUERNSEY' in letters 100mm high, and photographic evidence of this marking had to be provided before the registration was complete. The only exemption was if you were a member of a recognised yacht club, in which case you could put the yacht club initials. There was definitely no mechanism for showing a port of registry other than Guernsey.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I remember when I last registered my boat it was a bit more hassle to do channel islands registry, though they didnt need something (maybe the tonnage survey?) but since nothing in the P1 registration is particularly arduous I didnt see the benefit.

So what is the point of a Jersey or Guernsey registration if you are living and boating in the UK? Is it just pose value, or is there some deeper reason I am missing?

No pose value at all because from the outside nobody can tell if your boat is CI registered. My boat is registered in Guernsey but says London on the transom and, of course, we fly the red ensign. The reason that boats are often registered in the CI and Guernsey in particular is that the Guensey registry is less pedantic about having a complete and original paper trail of ownership documents. This is a particular issue for foreign owned boats being re-registered in the UK as in most other countries, a paper work trail is less important. I've bought 3 foreign owned boats in my time and obtaining a complete and original set of bills of sales, invoices and certificates was a nightmare in each case. In fact, in each case, I had to accept photocopies of one or 2 documents. These were acceptable to the Guernsey registry but not to the UK registry at Cardiff. Basically I think the Guernsey registry turn a bit of a blind eye as they want your money. You get a registration certificate that looks just like any British certificate

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I'd be interested to hear more about this. When we went through the ownership transfer process with the Guernsey registry last year, they were pretty clear that the boat needs to be marked with 'GUERNSEY' in letters 100mm high, and photographic evidence of this marking had to be provided before the registration was complete. The only exemption was if you were a member of a recognised yacht club, in which case you could put the yacht club initials. There was definitely no mechanism for showing a port of registry other than Guernsey.

Cheers
Jimmy

Mmm, maybe the procedure has changed. My existing boat was registered with them in 2005 and like you I had to supply photo evidence of the name on the transom and fixing of the carving plate but I had a free choice of ports. It's just a guess but the CI have come under increasing pressure from the EU to clean up their tax haven status so maybe this part of that?

 

[mjf]

Thats interesting - I always phone up, never occured to me to use the web.

I note that Weymouth and East Cowes are same ownership (deanreddyhoff).

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Mmm, maybe the procedure has changed. My existing boat was registered with them in 2005 and like you I had to supply photo evidence of the name on the transom and fixing of the carving plate but I had a free choice of ports. It's just a guess but the CI have come under increasing pressure from the EU to clean up their tax haven status so maybe this part of that?

Hi Mike, I've sent you a PM about this.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Basically I think the Guernsey registry turn a bit of a blind eye as they want your money. You get a registration certificate that looks just like any British certificate

I've got to say that my experience with the Guernsey registrar in May this year was pretty much the complete opposite - the chap I spoke to couldn't have been more helpful, but he was absolutely relentless in getting all the documentation trail for the boat correct and complete. As an aside, James Barke at Essex Boatyards was also instrumental in filliing in some gaps in the paper trail, excellent job.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[Fire99]

I think on a general note, the Government are utterly skint with an eye-watering level of public debt. Add to the fact they are a paranoid Control-Freak establishment, I can see this happening more frequently.

I think they see the Channel Islands as a haven for Tax Dodgers and any boat over here that's registered over there, is likely to be one of them.

A bit simplistic but I think that's pretty much the current government directive.

 

[jfm]

It did occur to me when I read Magnums Tunisia post that it might be easier to pop to MC for a day or even truck the boat to a Swiss lake for a w/e.... Clearly MC option is a non starter - what about CH?

Trucking a P72 to CH is a non starter. Too big for French roads, and the Alps. Gib and Tunisia by sea are the only options. Tunisia is 900nm return, approx. That's nowt in a Pred 72. I did that on my summer trip to Corsica in the Sq58. It's a piece of cake, and a beautiful cruise. Mags has already done it, last month, been to Tunisia and back

 

[jfm]

the resigtry of the bost hsd no bearing on whether the owner is allowed TI relief, it helps the story but its not a requirement to be non EU flagged.

WTF? That is just not correct.

The law on this is EC Regulation 2454/93, article 558, which says "[Temporary] relief from import duties shall be granted for means of ... sea ... transport where they (a) are registered outside [the EC] in the name of a person established outside [the EC]..."

In the UK this is also covered in the same terms in HMRC notice 308, para 2.1. Notice 308 is, in essence, HMRC's guidebook to EC Regulation 2454/93, article 558 et seq

To be precise, but this is academic pedantry too far, a boat may qualify for TI if it isn't registered at all, provided it is owned by a non EU person. But given that we are talking here about boats that by definition visit more than one country, non-registration is not a feasible option for lots of non-VAT reasons. Point is, assuming the owner decides to register the boat, then he must flag it outside the EU to get TI.

Feel free to disagree, but quote some law.

 

[mjf]

Ah! excellent point. Was not in "brain in gear mode" as they have trouble with 40ft containers so a Pred as no road chance....

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Best I be careful if "they" ever come aboard Jedi. I have a nice carved plaque showing Guernsey and registered tonnage screwed to a bulkhead.