Have you had a letter from HMRC?

[jimmy_the_builder]

We were in Yarmouth overnight in July this year, and while we were there, a black HMRC rib cruised the harbour, and they appeared to be taking vessel details. My boat is registered in Guernsey, and so I half expected the customs guys to turn up a bit later on and ask to see docs.

What I didn't particularly expect was the letter I've received today, via the Yarmouth harbour master, from HMRC's 'Flexible Deployment Team - Solent', saying 'Please can you provide copy documentation, to confirm the vessels legal ownership and any other documentation you may have (customs entry), which relates to the purchase or importation of this vessel?'.

The letter goes on to say 'VAT is due on any vessel imported from outside the EC unless you are entitled to one of the relief's [sic] available. EU residents should only use a vessel in the Community if it is VAT paid or 'deemed' VAT paid. Documentary evidence supporting this should be carried at all times as you could be asked to produce it by customs officials in any EC member state (see notice 8).'

I've been warned that having a Guernsey registered boat (which, incidentally, _is_ VAT paid) on the south coast would be likely to attract HMRC attention. Has anyone else had a letter like this from HMRC?

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

An alarming development and probably a sign of HMRC's current desperation to rake in tax revenue wherever they can. Obviously they would target CI registered boats as being most likely to be not VAT paid but the section in your letter relating to EU residents might suggest that they would investigate any boat they found. Incedentally what is 'notice 8'?
I wonder how those forumites who regularly argue against the necessity to obtain proof of VAT status documentation when purchasing a secondhand boat would answer this particular letter?

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

This document is notice 8 (from the HMRC website):

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...ntent&id=HMCE_CL_000289&propertyType=document

And I agree, this text does seem to suggest that you are required to carry VAT proof on the vessel at all times.

Documentary evidence supporting this should be carried at all times as you could be asked to produce it by customs officials in any EC member state

I tried calling the number on the letter earlier on today, but no reply...

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[benjenbav]

Are you sure it's genuine? Neither the grocer's apostrophe nor the reference to the "EC" sounds like HMG.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Are you sure it's genuine? Neither the grocer's apostrophe nor the reference to the "EC" sounds like HMG.

Hmm. No reply at all from the phone number on the letter, and I can't find it on Google either. The letter was actually addressed to the harbour master at Yarmouth, and they have forwarded it on to me, although it refers to my boat by name. I suppose I would have expected HMRC to get ownership details from Yarmouth, and then contact me directly. The email address on the letter is on the gsi.gov.uk subdomain, so I'll try that next.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[gjgm]

is this why the forum is so quiet.. most people have been banged up ?

 

[jfm]

Intriguing. I wouldn't bother to reply if I were you, and I wouldn't try to email/contact them. You are under no duty to reply or contact them, esp as the letter wasn't even addressed to you! If they want to assess you to tax on your VAT paid boat, let them

There is some typical HMRC bending of the law in there. You are most certianly not "required" to carry the docs they mention. There is no law requiring that. You are of course required to pay VAT if you import a boat (as you know, and which isn't relevant here) but they have to have reasonable grounds for thinking you've imported it sans tax before they can assess you. It's typical HMRC modus operandi to be unclear about your rights/duties/obligations and their own powers

Interesting development though. We might for the first time on record see HMRC doing random spot checks on pleasure boats in UK waters, and even being difficult with those who can't produce VAT invoices etc. It certainly adds weight to the argument you should get clean VAT papers if buying 2nd hand, if only for an easy life. Strange though that they accosted the HM, not you personally

 

[gjgm]

from notice 8
1.3 Who should read this notice?
This notice is intended for anyone who owns or is responsible for a pleasure craft that sails to or from locations outside the United Kingdom.

The Channel Islands are treated as a place outside the United Kingdom and European Community for VAT purposes.

As regards second hand boats and VAT, I dont think anyone has suggested the discussion applied to non UK (registered) boats.
and read
If you are unable to provide any of the above, whilst cruising within the EU you should carry a Bill of Sale (between two private individuals in the UK). Whilst this is not conclusive proof that VAT has been paid, it does indicate that tax status is the responsibility of UK Customs

But notice 8 isnt new.. its 7 years old...!

 

[jfm]

Are you sure it's genuine? Neither the grocer's apostrophe nor the reference to the "EC" sounds like HMG.

Sounds genuine to me. The correct expression in this context is EC, not EU. Monaco and IoM are in the EC and a boat bought in either of those 2 places is freely importable (with no further VAT due) into the EU, but Monaco and IoM are not in the EU

The duff apostrophe (and lack of one earlier in the letter) do not suggest it's a hoax, such are prevailing standards in English letter writing today!

 

[jfm]

from notice 8
As regards second hand boats and VAT, I dont think anyone has suggested the discussion applied to non UK (registered) boats.

Hmmm, good point. Twud be interesting Jimmy to call the HM and ask him if you (and any other non UK-reg boat owners) were the only ones to attract this enquiry, or did HM get a load of similar letters for UK flagged boats too?

 

[hlb]

Well as the letter did not come direct from HMRC, I'd ignore it. Let them chase you, dont give them anything on a plate.

 

[benjenbav]

The correct expression in this context is EC, not EU. Monaco and IoM are in the EC

Talk about live and learn. I've just had a fascinating little peregrination around the web in the context of the various arrangements between the EU and Monaco in this context.

 

[hlb]

Well my original sales bill says. Sold for £1 and other concidertions. So I suppose I might owe 15p.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

There is some typical HMRC bending of the law in there. You are most certianly not "required" to carry the docs they mention. There is no law requiring that. You are of course required to pay VAT if you import a boat (as you know, and which isn't relevant here) but they have to have reasonable grounds for thinking you've imported it sans tax before they can assess you. It's typical HMRC modus operandi to be unclear about your rights/duties/obligations and their own powers

Entirely typical of the way HMRC starts tax enquiries though. Instead of asking a direct question, the first letter is always a vague fishing type letter along the lines of asking if there is anything you might have omitted from your tax return. This is only designed to put the frighteners on. In JtB's case, I agree with you. Ignore it until and unless they come back with a specific allegation

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Hmmm, good point. Twud be interesting Jimmy to call the HM and ask him if you (and any other non UK-reg boat owners) were the only ones to attract this enquiry, or did HM get a load of similar letters for UK flagged boats too?

I did exactly that. The harbour was full on the night in question; HMRC have apparently asked for details of three vessels - a visitor (me) and two bertholders. No data on whether or not the vessels are non-UK flagged. It also transpires that Yarmouth have already released my name and address back to HMRC...

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[mjcp]

Well my original sales bill says. Sold for £1 and other concidertions. So I suppose I might owe 15p.

The other considerations could still attract a liability; further if you structured the sale so as to AVOID a liability, you may get fined too...

But then how many gifts over £10 (given or received) as a business have you accounted for VAT on ;-)

mjcp

 

[hlb]

No. The original one, when it was new, theres been three or four owners since then.

 

[Robin]

It used also to be common when selling a boat on the old 'Blue Book', now Part 1 registry to receive a letter from the Inland Revenue asking for details of if and where you paid tax as they had no record of you as a taxpayer. I replied to one (I then paid PAYE) saying that if their sudden 'interest' in me was because I had just sold a boat I would remind them that a) boats were not subject to capital gains tax and b) that their nosing on the registry should also have shown that the boat was mortgaged so not bought out of hidden funds. I heard no more from them in that instance but when I sold my next boat the same letter arrived shortly afterwards - and got the same reply.

 

[rallyveteran]

I think this is a really strange development

1 Why did HMRC wait two months and send you a letter rather than jump on the vessel and demand to see the documents there and then? If you couldn't produce them at the time they've presumably got a better chance of either seizing the vessel or of getting al the other information they want to prove your identity. If you can't produce the documents now what are they going to do?
2 Anybody reading this thread has now got an excellent incentive to give either false details to the Yarmouth Harbour Master (risky) or to set up an accommodation address for the purpose of giving to Harbour Masters in future (presumably perfectly legal).
3 Reading the HMRC notice 8 document the part I'm most concerned about is the requirement to fill in a C1331 if going to the Channel Islands direct from the UK, and to fly a Yellow if returning directly from there. It must be years since I have done either of these - relying on the defence that I travelled via France, obviating both requirements. If they are going to start enforcing these requirements perhaps we're going to start reading about yachtsmen picking up fines for non-compliance. Perhaps they are softening us up ready for e-borders.

 

[jhr]

2 Anybody reading this thread has now got an excellent incentive to give either false details to the Yarmouth Harbour Master (risky) or to set up an accommodation address for the purpose of giving to Harbour Masters in future (presumably perfectly legal)

This bit's got me mystified. I must have been to Yarmouth ten or fifteen times in the past few years and have never once been asked for anything other than the name of my boat when I paid for a mooring. No name, no address.... nuffink. I'm beginning to feel left out