Have you ever had a Danforth type anchor break out..?

  • Thread starter Thread starter DogWatch
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rob2 said:
All this paranoia about anchors! The whole thing boils down to two issues.

1) The bower anchor needs to be at least one size larger than that recommended by the manufacturer.
2) When cruising, you need more than one type to suit a variety of bottoms.

Rob.
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Thanks for the info
 
Brian@Fortress said:
Gents,

This is a terrific post with many intelligent, straightforward & honest answers. I addressed this wind shift issue with Danforth / Fortress fluke anchors in a painfully long-winded post on this link below. Pop open a cold one first:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257345&page=8

And now, so I don't sound like another boorish anchor manufacturer, I am going to exit stage door left.

Regards,
Brian Sheehan

Fortress Marine Anchors
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Brian don't leave, it's one of the main advantages of this forum that manufacturers come along from time to time to assist us with technical or usage of their products. As long as they allow the rest of us an opinion too; well I think you know to which I refer!

Anyhow, as I am trying to reduce some bow weight on my small cat I may well need your advice soon.

DW
 
vyv_cox said:
If a Fortress qualifies as a Danforth type, then yes, twice. I believe that shifts during lighter conditions are more of a problem than strong winds. Details in another thread.
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I am not sure I saw or read your comment in the other thread (which thread btw) Vyv... Do you think this is because without a constant pull the flukes are not burying themselves adequately to cope with a shift in the direction of pull?

Did your experience include the anchor not resetting on it's own?
 
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DogWatch said:
I am not sure I saw or read your comment in the other thread (which thread btw) Vic... Do you think this is because without a constant pull the flukes are not burying themselves adequately to cope with a shift in the direction of pull?

Did your experience include the anchor not resetting on it's own?
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Here's what I wrote on the 'Anchor question for Craig' thread. The 'real world' quip is in response to comment by another.

Having twice dragged on a Fortress that failed to reset when the wind or tide turned, I provide my view on the two cases. The anchor is a Fortress Fx16 on 8 mm chain rode. I always reverse the boat to set the anchor and pull for at least a minute at up to about 2000 rpm to ensure that it is well in.

On the occasions in question the wind was very light. In one case I was in inland Holland, no tide, the other occasion was tidal, calm conditions. One occurred at lunch time when we were sitting in the cockpit, the other was early in the morning after sleeping on the anchor overnight. On both occasions we observed the change in direction, followed very swiftly by the realisation that we were no longer in our anchored position.

This is what I suspect. In a shift of a stronger wind the rode will remain fairly straight, pull on the anchor shank will remain reasonably axial and there is a good chance that the anchor will reset. In light wind/tide the chain will form a loop from the boat as it rides over the anchor. I have observed this in practice on many occasions. It then follows that there is a chance that the loop will pass under the stock and foul the flukes. Even if it does not, the light weight that is such a welcome feature of the Fortress acts against it in such light conditions, when it has a tendency to skip across the bottom.

I like my Fortress very much and use it constantly - but as a kedge, not a bower. I add that I also have 'real world' experience of anchoring. Up to 200 nights per year for the past seven years and nearly as many for the preceding 20 or so.
 
Vyv,

Thanks for your post and I am sorry to hear that this happened to you while you were using our product. Unexpected things like that are never fun.

if you don't mind, I would like to trouble shoot this by asking a couple of quick questions:

1. What type of sea bottoms were you anchoring in?

2. How deep was the water, and how much of your 8mm chain rode did you have out?

I have my suspicions as to what might have occurred, but I could be dead wrong.

Thanks again,
Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors
 
DogWatch said:
Brian don't leave, it's one of the main advantages of this forum that manufacturers come along from time to time to assist us with technical or usage of their products. As long as they allow the rest of us an opinion too; well I think you know to which I refer!

Anyhow, as I am trying to reduce some bow weight on my small cat I may well need your advice soon.

DW
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Thanks DW. I would be glad to help you if at all possible.

And BTW, I oftentimes learn as much from you guys as you might learn from me, and what I don't know, I am going to find the answers by contacting the crusty old anchoring gurus on my speed dialer. Just kidding guys!

Once you start thinking that you possess all of the world's knowledge on a subject as diverse as anchoring, you will soon be served a healthy slice of humble pie.

Much appreciated,
Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors
 
Brian@Fortress said:
Vyv,

Thanks for your post and I am sorry to hear that this happened to you while you were using our product. Unexpected things like that are never fun.

if you don't mind, I would like to trouble shoot this by asking a couple of quick questions:

1. What type of sea bottoms were you anchoring in?

2. How deep was the water, and how much of your 8mm chain rode did you have out?

I have my suspicions as to what might have occurred, but I could be dead wrong.

Thanks again,
Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors
Click to expand...

Brian,

It was a long time ago, so I cannot be absolutely certain. The first was in the Haringvliet in Holland, fresh water, bottom is just about as ideal as it can be with mixed sand and mud. Depth about 5 metres. Plenty of chain out (I do know how to anchor!) We were eating lunch, nice day, little wind. What little wind there was turned and we suddenly realised that a buoy that had been close by was suddenly a long way away. I walked forward and heard the unmistakeable sound of the chain dragging across the bottom. Hauled it all in with no resistance from the anchor.

Second time was also in Holland, just outside Stellendam in an attractive sheltered anchorage. All sand, as most of the Dutch coast is, no weed and not a rock for 50 miles! Woke up early in the morning as the tide turned and we heard the chain dragging on the bottom. I went to check it and found a very similar situation to the first one. Tidal range is small here, less than 3 metres from memory and I would have allowed a metre or so beneath us, so I suspect something like 25 metres of chain out.

I emphasise that my post isn't a complaint, just answering the question. Anchors are no different from many things in life - some are good at one thing, others are good at another. It's a matter of trying to have one that suits the circumstances.

Vyv
 
rob2 said:
1) The bower anchor needs to be at least one size larger than that recommended by the manufacturer.
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That's a rather broad statement. Rather obviously depends on what the manufacturer in question is basing their recommendations on don't you think?

rob2 said:
2) When cruising, you need more than one type to suit a variety of bottoms.
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Do you?

Why?

If you're restricted to a world of only pre-war technologies, then you may be right. A CQR, a Danforth, better chuck in an Admiralty pattern for good luck too. Each there to address the flaws of the others.

Or you could find an anchor that actually works well, as it should, across the range of seabeds.
 
Re the OP. There is abundant anecdotal evidence re Danforth and Fortress behavior upon veers. Experiences absent these typical failures constitute only a small sample - in the same category as the driver with cheap retread tyres or fake brake pads who insists, obviously truthfully, that the 10,000 kms clocked up so far have been perfectly okay. If you want more authoritive feedback -

Here are two quotes at hand, the first from the editor of one of the mags behind this very forum:

"The closest I've come to disaster was when my anchor dragged over a mile across a bay, towards rocks and a wall of concrete at Seaview, Isle of Wight. It was 0300 and everyone aboard was asleep when a windshift, aided and abetted by a change of tide, caused the Fortress FX-16 anchor to break out and drag... Though renowned for superb holding power, Danforth types can break out if the pull changes direction and they don't always regain their grip...”
— Editor's Log, Yachting Monthly December 2006

Also from YM, albeit from before there were many great alternatives (anchors not magazines...), the second is an example of controlled independent testing:

"[Re Danforth] ... Further loading, when the anchor set correctly, forced the flukes down at an angle of 50 to 60 degrees to the seabed until they were fully buried with the shank and stock flat on the sea floor. When the anchor 'reared up' into this first position - supported by the tips of the flukes and the end of the shank - it regularly fell over to one side, still supported by one end of the stock, the point of a fluke and the shank end. In this position it readily dragged and had difficulty regaining a grip. / When re-subjected to loading after the simulated veer, the Danforth tended to 'flip out' as the pull came on from the new direction and it generally dragged before resetting. ... / ... The Danforth showed poor roll stability and ability to veer in the Simpson-Lawrence trials."
— Miles Clark, Yachting Monthly, January 1988

~

It is more trivial to make the case against re-setting by simply considering the poor setting behavior in the first place. An anchor which doesn't set reliably obviously cannot be relied upon to handle a force veer unattended.

From Creative Marine's ABS certified testing:
"21 pound aluminum FORTRESS FX37 anchor with a 6-1 scope and chain did not set and had no measurable pressure on the rode while dragging. / 26 pound WEST MARINE Danforth steel anchor with a 6-1 scope and chain did not set and had a maximum of 200 pounds pressure on the rode while dragging."

It is easy to get any Danforth type to fail to set by dragging it quickly. Of course this is true of any anchor but the Danforth flukes are particularly prone to "planing" across the surface. Lightness of weight in aluminium form hardly helps. Naturally, the situation of a break-out on a veer can result in acceleration of the boat, drifting downwind, to a speed where such an anchor has no chance.

Then there is the greater ease with which the fluke or stock can be fouled by the rode, usually on a veer...

http://www.redrightreturning.net/wp-content/gallery/anchor-hall-of-fame-folder/20080728%20danforth%20foulded%20with%20chain_576x768.JPG

http://www.redrightreturning.net/wp-content/gallery/anchor-hall-of-fame-folder/20080818_28.JPG

I am surprised you need a thread on this topic, the type has been around for countless years and you don't see symmetrical anchors in use on small boats if their outfitters had any sense. The same will become true of plows and claws over time.
 
Why am I coming in for so much barely disguised abuse? Every time one of the yachting press publishes tests of anchors, the results contradict the test that went before.

I believe that some of the newer designs may have improved performance under some conditions but I stand by the assertion that no one design performs to its best under all conditions. Therefore one size larger than the recommended minimum and yes, there is still a use for an admiralty pattern!

Returning to the OP question, no I have never broken out a Danforth - but it was two sizes bigger than manufacturer's recommended minimum and with all chain scope. Latterly , though, I have noticed the mass manufacturers' boats delivered with pitifully small anchors and they are frequently to be seen dragging. I also wondered how many participants in the RTI race had to leave their anchors at home as they were banned from carrying them in the bow rollers. I was very tempted by the offer of a good secondhand Fortress, but couldn't think where I could carry it. Life's full of compromises...

Rob.
 
I used a Danforth as sole anchor for four years while anchoring almost every night except for nights on passage.

It was a great anchor until the last year of my cruise when one morning the anchor came up mangled to what would have made an exibit at an art gallery. I kid you not, both flukes were twisted and bent back on themselves and the shank was bent at almost 90 degrees. The wind was strong and I had anchored close to coral. This was in the Bahamas.

My conclusion is that I would never rely on a Danforth type as sole anchor again. The good performance fooled me to put too much reliance on it, only to realise that although good, the Danforth is a very WEAK anchor with poor inherent strength. I had to use my smaller danforth to get home, actually Miami, where I bought a Bruce.
 
Woodlouse said:
I've seen Danforths where after a wind shift the stock has bent rather than the anchor breaking free.
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This is a good point - people talk about Danforths as if they are all of the same quality - which they're not. I've seen some Danforth-pattern anchors in which the stock was made from steel which was far too thin, as were the flukes. Cheap and nasty. They just looked like anchors.
 
craigsmith said:
Or you could find an anchor that actually works well, as it should, across the range of seabeds.
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Be very careful here Craig. If you are implying that the Rocna anchor works well in all seabeds, then I can certainly inform the public about seabed conditions where the Rocna anchor is doomed.

craigsmith said:
I am surprised you need a thread on this topic, the type has been around for countless years and you don't see symmetrical anchors in use on small boats if their outfitters had any sense. The same will become true of plows and claws over time.
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This type of insulting comment blows my mind as to the lack of class and respect. Considering the source, it should not come as a surprise, but it still does.

You are saying that the US Coast Guard, US Navy, and all of our commercial & pleasure boat builder customers who outfit their boats of all sizes with a Fortress as their primary anchor don't "have any sense" ?????

And when our customers contact us with their incredible stories about how their Fortress anchors saved their boats in high winds and even hurricanes....and the wind spun their boats around 180° but the anchor still held.....I guess we should just tell them that it was a miracle because fluke anchors can't do this??????

Happy holidays,
Brian Sheehan

Fortress Marine Anchors
 
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rob2 said:
I also wondered how many participants in the RTI race had to leave their anchors at home as they were banned from carrying them in the bow rollers. .
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Huh?

You can't think of one other place you could store an anchor other than on the bow roller?
 
electrosys said:
This is a good point - people talk about Danforths as if they are all of the same quality - which they're not. I've seen some Danforth-pattern anchors in which the stock was made from steel which was far too thin, as were the flukes. Cheap and nasty. They just looked like anchors.
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The same applies to other types: there are some nasty cast plough types out there and there are Chinese made versions of the Bugel/Manson roll bar design about which I personally would have serious doubts.
 
Message to Craig

The Rocna may be a superb anchor. It might just possibly be even more superb than the Spade, Manson, Bugel and any other 4th generation anchor out there.

But you don't convince anybody of that by rubbishing earlier generation anchors which have held boats firm millions (literally) of times. And by rubbishing them is such a boorish way, you actually do Rocna a disservice.
 
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