Have we been conned ..... ?

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My wife and I started sailing two years ago. We are both dayskippers with give or take 1000 miles in our logbooks so without a doubt limited experience. We have been on two two-week bareboat charters in the Med and chartered a handful of times in the UK.

I would really appreciate some advice on the following little incident:

The last time we chartered in England we brought the boat back with a damaged genoa furl. The drum blades were bent. I have attached the pictures. Before we left the marina we were specifically warned that 'we should keep pressure on the genoa sheets otherwise it would come out of the drum'. The yacht is about 5 years old I believe.

We sailed all weekend in very moderate conditions. Wind did not exceed 15-20 knots at anytime.

My question now is: Is it possible for the drum blades to bend in this way in moderate conditions and without any incidents? Have we been taken advantage of?
We lost our security deposit which is a shame but not my main problem. I just want to know if we could have prevented this in anyway.

Many thanks in advance for your feedback!
 
Would it not bend straight-ish again? I suspect a previous charterer may have bent & straightened it before. If the rope tangles or slips out of the drum, the force on those bars could be considerable, even in quite light winds.
 
Someting funny here IMHO, Its a safety feature in a yacht to let sheets fly ;-) the only way I can see that damage happening is if someone is winching in a reefing line jammed over the wire bit..
Lesson: If something requires excessive force check what's wrong before something breaks!
 
I would have thought that comes under wear and tear myself.

Some years ago, before I had my own boat, I put a hole big enough to put your hand though in the bow of a charter boat misjudging bringing it in to a marina and catching a big cleat. We were only a couple of miles from the charter's base. I called up the charterer and they said "Oh dear. Bring it back slowly so you don't get water in hole and we will help you cross-deck your stuff to another boat and you can still catch the last of the tide". And that was the last I heard of the the incident.

I don't think you were treated very well.
 
looks a little flimsy to me, was it set up right by the charter company, if it was fitted wrong, ie, no blocks to take it back to the cockpit, and a cleat to keep it taut,it looks like a bit is missing from the furling, if not then it could very easily get tangled up, but that shouldn't be your problem, but the fault of the charter company in not fitting the hardware up properly...shouldn't there be a feeder taking the halyard from the drum. this might be the problem, or might never have been fitted, and deposit is a scam which everyone gets caught out with...
 
Sounds like they knew it was dodgy / on it's last legs (hence the warning - if it was working 100% would be no need)............the cynic in me says they were waiting for someone to "break" it (and pay towards replacement).

Gotta name for the Charterer?
 
Facnor is fitted to my boat so I ahave some experience.

Never winch the drum...it is not strong enough for that.
The lead is quite important otherwise the line does not feed on/off the drum correctly.
Yes you do need a light tension on the sail to help it furl but light is the key word. I always ease the sheet to take the weight of the wind out of the sail.

The s/s cage will bend back at not real cost to charter company and will not need to be removed...total time on job, 2 minutes. I have bent mine slightly to close the gap between the s/s cage and drum...obviously not as bad as yours but...

Think they are taking the p**s.
 
I've never before seen a roller reefing system without a rope giude fitted to ensure that the furling line feeds properly onto the drum. See the photo below albeit of a different system..

Looks to me as if this bit is missing off your boat - either because it dropped off and caused the problem in your useage or because it wasnt there in the first place. Either way, its the charter comapnies problem = poor maintenance.

P.S. Dont know why the link wouldnt work but just look up a typical selden system to see what I mean
 
I have copied your pic and zoomed in to have a look at the s/s bolt shown towards the aft side of the under drum which looks to be located in a rebated area that looks as if it is designed to retain some type of furling line guide or leader which is obviously missing, this would certainly cause problems with a furling line.
Also it looks as if the s/s rod has been repaired just where it dissapears under the black lower section.
You could go back and have another look and take someone with you for a second opinion. I would also look for a catalogue pic of same model and compare them.
You havent said how much the deposit was, but if anything over £40, you have been ripped off.
C_W
 
I have the same furler as this. There is nothing missing from it. See http://www.facnor.com/uk/products/headsail_furlers/racing_range/fichiers/headsail-angl_2.pdf

It should have a guide block for the furling line mounted reasonably near it on the pulpit or toe rail and the guard wire cage should be positioned so that the line goes cleanly through a gap (you slacken a couple of screws and rotate it to suit). The line should not touch the cage. I can only assume from the picture that you got the line out of position and bearing on the guard wire cage somehow and then wound in with considerable tension. (Or else it was all set up totally wrong when you got the boat.)

It should be possible to straighten it quite easily. No problem to take it off and do on the bench. Even if it was your fault I think they are being mean.
 
I have been using the same facnor furler for 5 years but have not managed to bend the side pieces despite a few snarl ups of the furling line.

Assuming it was not bent at the start of the charter I think you are guilty of mis-use of the system, you would have to put daft forces on the system to bend the guides like that remotely from the cockpit.

The system is prone to suffering the furling line jump out of the main drum if tension is not kept on the line, so their prior advice was reasonable. However if the leader on the toe rail was misaligned or absent then tension during unfurling operations would have been vital to prevent problems.

Should you loose your deposit? Debatable I suggest.

Their prior warning indicates they know the system is troublesome and I would go as far as saying the facnor is fundamentally mis designed and unsuitable for charter crews not attuned to its quirky operation.

What size of deposit did you loose? More than £100.00 is unreasonable.
 
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jimi said:
Someting funny here IMHO, Its a safety feature in a yacht to let sheets fly ;-)
Click to expand...
The charter company meant during re-furling. On high aspect sails nasty things happen to the rolled sail pack if the clew wanders upwards during the furling process.

With the facnor, when sailing dead down wind it is advisable to keep tension on the furling line because if the drum whips back and fore during foresail gybes it can throw a counter turn outside the guides and over the top of the drum = very nastly.

During unfurling the furling line can bunch/jump out of the drum if the sail is unfurled in a hurry with zero tension on the furling line.
 
I haven't (yet, touch wood) had a problem with the line getting out of position on my Facnor furler. I do always keep light tension on both the furler and the sail when operating.
Maybe the key is LIGHT tension. Even if the rope did somehow get out of position and over one of the wires, I reckon it must have taken considerable force with a winch to bend it like that. I certainly wouldn't expect to winch the furler (with a 29ft masthead rig boat) in the winds the OP mentions.
Looking again at the photos the angle to the first block doesn't look very good but it's hard to tell. I think it's too far away taking the line too high. A photo under tension would make it clear.
BTW the furler rope should go through one of the wire loops not between them, so it looks wrongly rigged in that respect. (In effect the wire loop is the rope guide that some posters have wrongly surmised to be missing.) If the wire loop is close to the drum edge this should stop the rope going anywhere it shouldn't. You could argue that this isn't as robust as some others.
So hard to see it as anything other than the OP's fault. As I said before it seems a bit mean to charge, but they have to make a living in hard times and if they are paying someone to do repairs, it's costing them!
 
colvic987 said:
looks a little flimsy to me, was it set up right by the charter company, if it was fitted wrong, ie, no blocks to take it back to the cockpit, and a cleat to keep it taut,it looks like a bit is missing from the furling, if not then it could very easily get tangled up, but that shouldn't be your problem, but the fault of the charter company in not fitting the hardware up properly...shouldn't there be a feeder taking the halyard from the drum. this might be the problem, or might never have been fitted, and deposit is a scam which everyone gets caught out with...
Click to expand...

agreed...It is advisable however to keep a littletension on the furling line and sheet at most times to prevent snarl-ups

I have a Profurl and the worst that has happened to mine is that I got a riding turn at night when in a rolling chop a few miles out of Cherb'g.
Thank goodness for the inner harbour where, with a headtorch, it could be sorted before going to mooring
S.
 
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Ok .. having viewed your photos enlarged. I agree with another post that furling line lead is wrong. It should be through the bar hoop - not between.

But I have niggly thoughts about the damage. If the bar hoop had been bent at back part - then it would appear furling line has bent it by having forced against it ... but it's the front part of bar hoop where no line is present. That confuses me as to how ?

Have the bar hoops rotated with the drum ? This should not happen - they should stay static to create a control 'wall' when furling line coming off / going on. I have a Plastimo but I had my bar hoops rotate one time and so now I have a light lashing to pulpit rail to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Tension on lines when furling / unfurling - that's common as then you get good lay of furling line on drum when unfurling, neat stow of sail when furled. Only way I can see that this damage has occurred is one of two ... external force applied such as when handling anchor through pulpit area ? or when unfurling genny - furling line has been left to run free and may have wound itself onto the bar hoop and someone kept pulling on sail sheets ...

But of course you've posted that is not the case ... ??

Bizarre damage IMHO ... in different position on furler and I can see easily furling line etc. could do it ... but this is in strange place ! interested in others opinion of my interpretation ...
 
Re Refueller's comments:

The guard wire loops of the Facnor are mounted in a split collar (two separate halves) retained by two clamp bolts squeezing it together on the base fitting. It's pretty secure if the bolts are firm. If it was slipping round then I can't see how this damage would have occurred, it would jsut have aligned in a new position.

I've also had some difficulty working out how this damage occurred and wondered if it was really due to the furling line or e.g. an anchor or mooring warp. However as the furling line is threaded between the loops instead of through a loop, it could possibly have gone anti-clockwise when unfurling, round above one of the loops into the other gap, facing over the starboard bow. If it was then winched back in this position it would be hooked round the wire guard and would deform it as shown.

The furling line looks too large diameter. I wonder if the drum gets too full and pushes the guard wires away?

If you do want to argue about it, Facnor's instructions (they aren't on line AFAICS) clearly show the furling line going through a loop not a gap, and that would make this scenario (virtually) impossible to achieve. You could claim incorrect rigging was responsible. The guard frame needs turning 90 degrees and the line threading through.

Facnor also stress that the line to the first guide block should be perpendicular to the axis of the drum halfway between its end plates. In this installation it looks too far back, which will send the line to the top of the drum.

Have we done this to death now?
 
Just going to add a comment or two.

1) Suggest you review the rigging of the furler on the boat to that recommended by the manufacture. If it varies, demand your deposit back.
2) It is clearly a know problem to the charter company. My concern would be the fact that this has obviously happened before and the cage bent back. If this is so, it will have weakened the cage. Repeated bending will induce fatigue into the metal and make it much easier to bend each time, until it ultimately fails. If it is a know problem, it also begs the question why? It is either not fit for purpose or rigged incorrectly.
3) Contact the manufacturer and enquire as to how much a replacement part is. If you have lost more than that, plus say £40 labour, I would suggest you have been fleeced.

Our approach to damage is that if the cost of damage is less than the deposit I give the charterer the balance back once everything is settled. Only fair and reasonable in my opinion. As others have said, we are talking about a bent piece of S/S, so anything above £100 or so I would be challenging the charter company to justify it. At the end of the day, accidents do happen, boats break, but you wouldn’t expect to loose all of your deposit if you lost the boat hook overboard!
 
Enlarging the photos it looks like the furling line runs down the port side, ie away from the bent section, in which case I cannot see how this could happen.

However I also notice the the bow roller is directly in line with the bent frame, could the anchor / mooring line have snagged the frame and then been pulled taut?

Either way I would imagine this is easily repaired.

Incidentally the last boat we chartered the mains'l slides failed - as a result the sail split in two. The charter company picked it up by car, had it repaired the next day and charged us nothing. On another trip with a different company the anchor became bent in squalls in village bay on St Kilda, again no charge.
 
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