Mister E
Well-Known Member
What a desperate thing to suggest putting the lives of others on a rich mans toy just to save money.
Has the RNLI lost the plot?
- Thread starter ffiill
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dogleg
Well-Known Member
These figures (Mersey & Tyne) are out of date, (I suspect the RNLI WS is also) Shannon 13-21 is now on trials, upto around 60 will be built, I know of no plans to build more Tamars although it was discussed some time ago. 10 Merseys have been replaced by Shannons. There are 3 station Tynes, one of which will be replaced very soon by a Shannon, the other 2 will go next year. Severns will be modernised under the SLEEP programme' I think the 2019 date for the Mersey replacement has slipped, possibly an example of the over enthusiastic press department or the website is simply out of date. (We always thought it was by 2024, we are not a Mersey station though) A new Shannon allocation was recently announced for Peel IOM with an arrival date of 2021-2. |Refit and repair will keep the ALC busy, Mersey refits are currently carried out there.
Motor_Sailor
Well-Known Member
The maximum output from the building unit at Poole is 5 or 6 boats a year. 18 boats a year is another made up figure.
Although building the Atlantic hulls is currently done at Cowes there is thought to consolidate all composite work at Poole. The inservice date for some of the Shannon's is well beyond 2019. The idea is to get the production facility to have a consistent and reliable output over the years.
Any criticism of their move to go 'in house' has to be seen against the highly perilous state of the boatbuilding industry in the UK. Not only are most firms constantly battling viability, but the 'famine or feast' cycle makes it very hard for the RNLI to plan their replacement schedule. For example, I think it was in 2014, Mirabella V went into Pendennis for a hull lengthening. Green Marine were the prime contractors, but the job was so big, you couldn't find anyone on the South coast who could wield a resin brush that wasn't sucked into that project. The same thing has happened in the past at the time of the Whitbread fleet build, etc and this sort of interruption and unpredictability was why the RNLI decided they need more control of the process.
Although building the Atlantic hulls is currently done at Cowes there is thought to consolidate all composite work at Poole. The inservice date for some of the Shannon's is well beyond 2019. The idea is to get the production facility to have a consistent and reliable output over the years.
Any criticism of their move to go 'in house' has to be seen against the highly perilous state of the boatbuilding industry in the UK. Not only are most firms constantly battling viability, but the 'famine or feast' cycle makes it very hard for the RNLI to plan their replacement schedule. For example, I think it was in 2014, Mirabella V went into Pendennis for a hull lengthening. Green Marine were the prime contractors, but the job was so big, you couldn't find anyone on the South coast who could wield a resin brush that wasn't sucked into that project. The same thing has happened in the past at the time of the Whitbread fleet build, etc and this sort of interruption and unpredictability was why the RNLI decided they need more control of the process.
Bru
Well-Known Member
I'm away sailing on a slow mobile connection so cannot watch YouTube videos however...
The point that dear old Sybarite seems unable to grasp is that the RNLI do NOT set fixed limits on the operation of their boats
It's irrelevant what I, Sybarite or anyone else thinks the SLS can or cannot do, nor do design specifications or test results come into it. it's up to the people at the sharp end whether they try to launch or not
So I'll ask again, will you man up and admit you were wrong when you claimed Shannon and the SLS had an operational limit?
The point that dear old Sybarite seems unable to grasp is that the RNLI do NOT set fixed limits on the operation of their boats
It's irrelevant what I, Sybarite or anyone else thinks the SLS can or cannot do, nor do design specifications or test results come into it. it's up to the people at the sharp end whether they try to launch or not
So I'll ask again, will you man up and admit you were wrong when you claimed Shannon and the SLS had an operational limit?
chanelyacht
Well-Known Member
The ones in Sybarite and his little poodle jonjo's heads.
chanelyacht
Well-Known Member
You mean like you ignored my asking how many lifeboat launches you've been involved in, and if you've seen SLRS for real?
I assume the answer to both is zero.
Motor_Sailor
Well-Known Member
I think there's a chance that '2.5 metres' and 'no preset limits are in fact both correct answers but to very different questions.
I'm sure the 2.5m answer is to the question "what is the maximum depth of water a L&RV can be operated?" Well that's simply a function of the height of its air intake. IIRC the Talus tractor could wade to 8 feet in calm water so 2.5m for the new one seems right. As the Shannon can be launched in 1 metre of water on a gently shelving beach, the 1.5 metre margin allows for any white water along the beach edge. If the tractor unit is caught out and abandoned, then battened down it can survive up to 30 feet of immersion which was the same as the Talus as this is the maximum tide depth on the beaches where the L&RV furthest from the HW mark. (I think the max is 3 miles at Hoylake).
The 2.5m is also the maximum wading depth for crossing channels in the sand when taking the boat along the shore to a viable launch site. The Talus at 8 feet could handle the main channel at Wells when heading east to Bob Hall Sands.
The maximum wave height into which a Shannon can be launched is unrestricted for a number of practical reasons. The Shannon launch environment is very different around the country. Some such as Dungeness, Hastings, Aldeburgh, are steep shingle beaches where the L&RV hardly gets wet, but the bed is inclined at a steep angle and acts like a slipway propelling the boat into the dumping surf. The instant the bow intakes touch the water, the waterjets kick in to propel it on it's way.
Another scenario is the wide, flat beaches where the L&RV has to wade out to find sufficient depth such as Hoylake. Clearly the wave regime on these beaches is such that the boat can find 1m of water before the tractor / engine unit's intakes at 8ft are inundated.
The RNLI has well over 100 years experience of launching carriage boats from beaches. All this experience has been incorporated into their latest outfits. The criticism on here would suggest that these designs and capabilities have been plucked out of the air by out of touch ivory tower designers. The search for a new launch vehicle was protracted but included all sorts of options including modifying the old Talus tractors and Mersey carriages. About 10 years ago that was tested alongside the prototype L&RV at various sites around the country with the crews of many different boats. The L&RV was found to be superior in every situation and greeted with much enthusiasm by the people who would operate them in earnest. Luckily the RNLI has the funds to put this significant improvement in operational capability into service.
I'm sure the 2.5m answer is to the question "what is the maximum depth of water a L&RV can be operated?" Well that's simply a function of the height of its air intake. IIRC the Talus tractor could wade to 8 feet in calm water so 2.5m for the new one seems right. As the Shannon can be launched in 1 metre of water on a gently shelving beach, the 1.5 metre margin allows for any white water along the beach edge. If the tractor unit is caught out and abandoned, then battened down it can survive up to 30 feet of immersion which was the same as the Talus as this is the maximum tide depth on the beaches where the L&RV furthest from the HW mark. (I think the max is 3 miles at Hoylake).
The 2.5m is also the maximum wading depth for crossing channels in the sand when taking the boat along the shore to a viable launch site. The Talus at 8 feet could handle the main channel at Wells when heading east to Bob Hall Sands.
The maximum wave height into which a Shannon can be launched is unrestricted for a number of practical reasons. The Shannon launch environment is very different around the country. Some such as Dungeness, Hastings, Aldeburgh, are steep shingle beaches where the L&RV hardly gets wet, but the bed is inclined at a steep angle and acts like a slipway propelling the boat into the dumping surf. The instant the bow intakes touch the water, the waterjets kick in to propel it on it's way.
Another scenario is the wide, flat beaches where the L&RV has to wade out to find sufficient depth such as Hoylake. Clearly the wave regime on these beaches is such that the boat can find 1m of water before the tractor / engine unit's intakes at 8ft are inundated.
The RNLI has well over 100 years experience of launching carriage boats from beaches. All this experience has been incorporated into their latest outfits. The criticism on here would suggest that these designs and capabilities have been plucked out of the air by out of touch ivory tower designers. The search for a new launch vehicle was protracted but included all sorts of options including modifying the old Talus tractors and Mersey carriages. About 10 years ago that was tested alongside the prototype L&RV at various sites around the country with the crews of many different boats. The L&RV was found to be superior in every situation and greeted with much enthusiasm by the people who would operate them in earnest. Luckily the RNLI has the funds to put this significant improvement in operational capability into service.
dogleg
Well-Known Member
ditto with all new classes of boats, stations receiving Tamars all sent coxswains and mechanics to Poole for trials on the prototype which led to changes in the production boats, as with the Severn and Shannon. So the new boats and the SLAR are the result of design inhouse and consultation with those at the sharp end as to how they could be refined. The most important issue is the satisfaction of the crews in the end product be it Tamar, Shannon or any other class ALB and ILB and/or launching carriage.
Roll on Kiel Week.
After waiting for hours, no one can produce a reference to a video that confirms the new trolley works in conditions when mariners are likely to need prompt help. This is odd since the RNLI is a media savvy organisation never shy in coming forward to trumpet its achievements.
At this point I have to conclude the new £ multi million trolley is only effective when the RNLI is functioning as a rich mans free marine towing service in settled mid summer weather conditions.
At this point I have to conclude the new £ multi million trolley is only effective when the RNLI is functioning as a rich mans free marine towing service in settled mid summer weather conditions.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
As I said in my last post if you believed that the RNLI could launch into the type of sea I linked to then it would not be worth discussing any more. However as you have not be able to view the said links there is an excuse.
Whether or not the RNLi have fixed or not a limit does not mean that there is no limit as the most basic common sense should dictate.
Therefore I do claim that the SLS has a practical limit. I could see the travel hoist idea working in identical conditions - but at a fraction of the cost.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
It was a calculated figure based on the current RNLI website that they have 36 boats at presesnt which are due to be replaced within the next two years. That makes 18 boats per year. They aren't capable of doing that? Why am I not surprised?
A couple of years ago I did a search on all comparably sized RIBs. The Atlantic was more than twice as expensive as the next most expensive boat. It is made in-house. It costs more that an Oceanis 45. Why am I not surprised.?
This starts with the premise that boats can only be sourced in the UK. The French production is exported to many other countries. Berthon, who first manufactured the Shannon, said that they would continue to build them for foreign orders. Would anybody know how many they have sold? I don't know but I can guess.
limiting yourself to the same premise.
One of the reasons why Avis became the second largest car hire firm was because - as their CEO said - you don't hire experts and then tell them how to do their job.
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Sybarite
Well-Known Member
So they cant manage their web-site? And you would have me believe that they can manage an oh so more complicated project such as a lifeboat?
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
What is the relevance of a horse drawn carriage to the RNLI contraption?
dogleg
Well-Known Member
Having started on 8 knot wooden boats and lived through and experienced the transition to the 25knot boats of today and knowing the opinion of our crew I would say they can. Our coxswain and mechanic spent a week at Poole trialling the prototype of the boat we now have. They and the crew are perfectly happy with it and that is ultimately the most important consideration rather that of one who may never have seen one and certainly never been to sea on one in a gale or above.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
When I was talking about project management I was referring to the fact that in 2012 the Shannon was being priced at £1.5m and the trailor at £800k. Now those figures (after only 5 years when price inflation has been negligeable) have grown by 40% and 87.5% respectively to £2.1m and £1.5m.
I have not been in a Shannon but you have not been on the new CTT pantocarene hulled vedette. Measurements were taken to show that this type of hull gives rise to less pitching than the conventional Camarc inspired type hull and is therefore easier on the crew. Whose seats are also dampered.
dogleg
Well-Known Member
Indeed I have not seen the new |French boat but I have not criticised it either because not having experienced it would be unwise to do so. Have you been on it seen a Tamar or Severn?
dogleg
Well-Known Member
PS the Tamar prototype built In 2001 had dampened seats to make crew more comfortable in bad weather, is the new French boat the first to have these in which case I am pleased that they have caught up. I am sure French crews will like their new boats just as our crews like theirs, that is what matters most of all.
chanelyacht
Well-Known Member
It's interesting how both the serial RNLI bashers have never been involved with launching or recovering lifeboats, never been involved in SAR operations, and can't even bring themselves to use words other than "trolley", "contraption", etc, all sneers and sarcasm.
They're also very keen on demanding evidence and answers to their questions, yet rarely answer questions asked of them.
For example, jonjo has now been asked three times how many LB launches he has been involved with, and how many times he's seen the SLRS. Defeaning silence on both.
At least Sybarite when FD for GM would, I assume, have been in a car.
They're also very keen on demanding evidence and answers to their questions, yet rarely answer questions asked of them.
For example, jonjo has now been asked three times how many LB launches he has been involved with, and how many times he's seen the SLRS. Defeaning silence on both.
At least Sybarite when FD for GM would, I assume, have been in a car.
oldharry
Well-Known Member
I think part of the problem so many seem to have with RNLI is that we live in a country in which almost every public institution is strapped for cash. Schools, hospitals, transport systems, all falling apart for lack of funds. Except RNLI, who are able to give their crews the best boats (without entering the best design argument. The French were building better boats than us even in Nelsons time!), the best equipment, best training and best premises money can buy to support men who will always be there for us regardless of personal cost.
I visited the brand new multimillion pound LB station at St Davids yesterday with its £2.7m Tamar just 6 months or so old. State of the art everything! Compared to the cash strapped NHS hospital SWMBO was in last winter,it was chalk and cheese!
But this is hallmark of RNLI's success. An organisation that has managed its assets and fund raising well (maybe those top line exec salaries DO have a pay off), unlike NHS limping its way to disaster. Maybe I'm wrong but there seems a lesson here somewhere! We are just not used to large public organisations other than the banks and coporate entities having enough money to do their job and do it well.
We can be thankful that RNLI has got itself organised so I don't have to check my bank balance before I call for help at sea. I didn't feel comfortable at the excellence of the new St David's station, until I realised its simply because I am not used to seeing well funded organisations at work.
I visited the brand new multimillion pound LB station at St Davids yesterday with its £2.7m Tamar just 6 months or so old. State of the art everything! Compared to the cash strapped NHS hospital SWMBO was in last winter,it was chalk and cheese!
But this is hallmark of RNLI's success. An organisation that has managed its assets and fund raising well (maybe those top line exec salaries DO have a pay off), unlike NHS limping its way to disaster. Maybe I'm wrong but there seems a lesson here somewhere! We are just not used to large public organisations other than the banks and coporate entities having enough money to do their job and do it well.
We can be thankful that RNLI has got itself organised so I don't have to check my bank balance before I call for help at sea. I didn't feel comfortable at the excellence of the new St David's station, until I realised its simply because I am not used to seeing well funded organisations at work.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
What matters most of all is saving lives, not whether the crew likes their boat or not. You may argue that a happy crew is an efficient crew etc etc. I now wonder if you can give a balanced opinion if that is what you think matters the most. You have demonstrated that you have lost sight of the RNLI's objective in that one statement, your heart lies in crew comfort, the quality of the boat and equipment, not in the saving of lives at sea. It can happen in corporations that they lose sight of their reason (mission in modern geek speak) for existing and focus too much on some other aspect. Which gets back to a point I made earlier, what is good enough, maybe more boats at less cost addresses their goal of saving lives at sea.