Has the RNLI lost the plot?

[chanelyacht]

Can you provide the video evidence of the RNLI successfully launching a modern lifeboat off the £1.5 million meccano trolley in the same conditions as seen in the YouTube link I provided above?

I haven't scoured the internet for one, but having worked prop and jet boat for years, many a time I've made use of the fact that jets draw their propulsion water from a forward intake get get the boat off shores that a prop boat - any prop boat - would not have been able to do.

Have you ever seen a SLRS in real life?

 

[dogleg]

Can you provide the video evidence of the RNLI successfully launching a modern lifeboat off the £1.5 million meccano trolley in the same conditions as seen in the YouTube link I provided above?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hx2CYzUk1o

video of Hoylake Shannon on service in River Mersey near the Cruise berth well upstream from river mouth
F10 launch off open beach probably a good test

Your best option surely would be to ring a Shannon station and put your concerns to them in a constructive and thoughtful way

 

[jonjo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hx2CYzUk1o

video of Hoylake Shannon on service in River Mersey near the Cruise berth well upstream from river mouth
F10 launch off open beach probably a good test

Hardly comparable, the waves have a fraction of the power of the 95 video. And where was the lifeboat? Presumably the video was clipped because the lifeboat would have provided a true sense of the scale of these F10 wavelets.

I would be too embarrassed to even present that video as conclusive evidence of the effectiveness of the multi million £ trolley in challenging conditions. You must possess a contemptuous low opinion of the general sailing public if you think you can fool them into believing that was reprepsentative of F10 open beach conditions. All in all quite revealing about the personality types that leap to defend the RNLI online.

 

[Mister E]

Jonjo any fool can make any claim. Somebody who is not a fool has evidence to back it up.

Some of us are not defending the RNLI but asking for evidence to back up claims

 

[dogleg]

Hardly comparable, the waves have a fraction of the power of the 95 video. And where was the lifeboat? Presumably the video was clipped because the lifeboat would have provided a true sense of the scale of these F10 wavelets.

I would be too embarrassed to even present that video as conclusive evidence of the effectiveness of the multi million £ trolley in challenging conditions. You must possess a contemptuous low opinion of the general sailing public if you think you can fool them into believing that was reprepsentative of F10 open beach conditions. All in all quite revealing about the personality types that leap to defend the RNLI online.

I did not say this was a video of a Shannon launching off an open beach, although clearly safe launching was accomplished. The video was taken from the lifeboat searching for a supposed missing person in the river Mersey in a F10 well upstream, can you not possibly imagine the launching conditions on an open beach in such weather, have you yet spoken to any Shannon station or seen a SLAR in real life. I defend as you put it the RNLI not from any blinkened sense but from 30 years of operational experience including launching off open beach in gale conditions.

 

[Motor_Sailor]

Some people also have direct experience of how the carriage boats have been deployed over the years. I remember nearly 40 years ago getting an Oakley away into an onshore Force 9 in the middle of a winter snow storm. The boat was taken two miles along the beach to where it appeared the surf was less violent before the coxswain said he was happy to go. Both the shore team and crew knew there would only be one chance to get her away safely or it would be a disaster. By the time she was clear of the surf the boat had lost its radar and RDF loop and despite only being able to make 4 knots to windward as the wind had increased to F14 (old scale), they found the casualty by dead reckoning and stood by until the new Arun class boat arrived from up the coast. On return the boat wasn't recovered to the trailer as after 11 hours soaking wet and exposed to minus temperatures and 100mph + winds in an open boat, the crew were frostbitten and incapable of helping.

The Mersey was huge improvement over the Oakley and all that experience has gone into the Shannon and its trailer. When you've worked on the beach in those conditions the idea that a travel lift would provide the same capability is actually really funny. What the new Shannon trailer does is improve the reliability of the launch but mainly reduces the work load and time taken to turn the boat around so she's 'bows out' ready for the next launch.

The other thing about the launch carriage is, that together with the Shannon, it has a design life of 50 years.

 

[jonjo]

What the new Shannon trailer does is improve the reliability of the launch but mainly reduces the work load and time taken to turn the boat around so she's 'bows out' ready for the next launch.

This is reminiscent of the shifting dialogue used to explain away the deficiencies of another technology lemon, namely the F35 new generation US fighter.

The latest and greatest 21st century US fighter would loose in a dogfight to planes designed decades ago because it has ended up with the aerodynamic qualities of a bumble bee but hey ho this can be overlooked because the F35 is bristling with electronic gadgets and management systems to overwhelm the opposition.

Now we hear that the problems of the nextGen RNLI trolley can be overlooked because of the fab turn around time.

 

[Motor_Sailor]

. . Now we hear that the problems of the nextGen RNLI trolley . . .

What problems?

 

[Sybarite]

No, that was RNLI information that you kept wilfully misrepresenting

They told you the SLS had been tested in 2m waves, you kept on claiming that the SLS had an operational limit of 2m

Man up, admit you were wrong

No I specifically asked what were the limits.

 

[Sybarite]

The other thing about the launch carriage is, that together with the Shannon, it has a design life of 50 years.

The Shannon has an estimated operating life of 25 years; the hull and cabin 50 years. After 25 years the boat will require a total rebuild of engines and systems. A bit like how a total overhaul in a plane renews its life cycle.

If the boats do have a lifespan of 50 years, what is the boat building centre at Poole going to be doing with itself?

How long will the hulls last after being run up on gravel beaches at 25knts?

 

[Motor_Sailor]

If the boats do have a lifespan of 50 years, what is the boat building centre at Poole going to be doing with itself?

You're the smart arse - you do the maths: The RNLI has 350 lifeboats. Assuming each has a working life of 50 years that means they need to build 7 boats a year for the rolling replacement program.

Seems quite a full build schedule.

 

[Sybarite]

I did not say this was a video of a Shannon launching off an open beach, although clearly safe launching was accomplished. The video was taken from the lifeboat searching for a supposed missing person in the river Mersey in a F10 well upstream, can you not possibly imagine the launching conditions on an open beach in such weather, have you yet spoken to any Shannon station or seen a SLAR in real life. I defend as you put it the RNLI not from any blinkened sense but from 30 years of operational experience including launching off open beach in gale conditions.

The £250000 Talus tractor launching a £214000 Atlantic RIB...??

 

[dogleg]

The Shannon has an estimated operating life of 25 years; the hull and cabin 50 years. After 25 years the boat will require a total rebuild of engines and systems. A bit like how a total overhaul in a plane renews its life cycle.

If the boats do have a lifespan of 50 years, what is the boat building centre at Poole going to be doing with itself?

How long will the hulls last after being run up on gravel beaches at 25knts?[/QUOTE]

SLEEP with all Severn class + there are probably 60 or so Shannons to build, repair and refit of all boat classes

my info is that where there are steep shelving stone beaches the boat will only be beached at
speed where safety requires it

 

[dogleg]

Some people also have direct experience of how the carriage boats have been deployed over the years. I remember nearly 40 years ago getting an Oakley away into an onshore Force 9 in the middle of a winter snow storm. The boat was taken two miles along the beach to where it appeared the surf was less violent before the coxswain said he was happy to go. Both the shore team and crew knew there would only be one chance to get her away safely or it would be a disaster. By the time she was clear of the surf the boat had lost its radar and RDF loop and despite only being able to make 4 knots to windward as the wind had increased to F14 (old scale), they found the casualty by dead reckoning and stood by until the new Arun class boat arrived from up the coast. On return the boat wasn't recovered to the trailer as after 11 hours soaking wet and exposed to minus temperatures and 100mph + winds in an open boat, the crew were frostbitten and incapable of helping.

The Mersey was huge improvement over the Oakley and all that experience has gone into the Shannon and its trailer. When you've worked on the beach in those conditions the idea that a travel lift would provide the same capability is actually really funny. What the new Shannon trailer does is improve the reliability of the launch but mainly reduces the work load and time taken to turn the boat around so she's 'bows out' ready for the next launch.

The other thing about the launch carriage is, that together with the Shannon, it has a design life of 50 years.

I remember that job, listened to much of it on radio, from not far away, the awards were well deserved

 

[Sybarite]

Talking about the in-house built Atlantic 8.5 (28') RIB, a few more cost comparisons :

Atlantic £214000 = €252,000

http://www.rnlisunderland.org/docs/12016.jpg

Bénéteau 45 €250,680

http://www.beneteau.com/fr/oceanis/oceanis-45

SNSM 30' Jet vedette V2 €210,000.

https://www.snsm.org/flotte/vedette-v2-serie-des-9-m

 

[Bru]

No I specifically asked what were the limits.

And you were told it had been TESTED to 2m

You misunderstood that to be an operational limit, an understandable mistake until, despite having been repeatedly told that you are in error, you repeated your mistake ad nauseum

Now you've had a definitive statement from the horses mouth that there are NO operational limits be a man and admit that you were in the wrong

Go on, confession is good for the soul

 

[jonjo]

And you were told it had been TESTED to 2m

...

Now you've had a definitive statement from the horses mouth that there are NO operational limits be a man and admit that you were in the wrong

You ignored my earlier post on this subject.

Name another transportation related industry where the operational limit is not less than the tested limit?

All I can think of is intercontinental ballistic nuclear missiles.

 

[Sybarite]

And you were told it had been TESTED to 2m

You misunderstood that to be an operational limit, an understandable mistake until, despite having been repeatedly told that you are in error, you repeated your mistake ad nauseum

Now you've had a definitive statement from the horses mouth that there are NO operational limits be a man and admit that you were in the wrong

Go on, confession is good for the soul

OK, let's take an example.

Do you think that a Shannon could be beach launched in the weather conditions shown here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06AJkSD0HiU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wffS2u2644

If you do then there is no further point in discussing the subject with you.

If the answer is "no" that implies that somewhere between the information transmitted and the scenes shown above lies a definitive operating limit.

So the reply given has to be taken in its context. A response to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Bru: sometimes a little common sense is useful.

 

[Sybarite]

Here's another design concept which could be explored.

Remember there is £1.5m to play around with.

http://www.popsci.com/technology/ar...9-speed-boat-morphs-tank-tracked-beach-lander

This costs less that the Atlantic 8.5 rib. (which apparently needs a £250000 Talus tractor to launch it....)

 

[Sybarite]

You're the smart arse - you do the maths: The RNLI has 350 lifeboats. Assuming each has a working life of 50 years that means they need to build 7 boats a year for the rolling replacement program.

Seems quite a full build schedule.

Perhaps if your arse were a bit smarter you might spout something other than crap....

The 350 lifeboats includes RIBs.

The "hard" boats total 159.

Shannon 10 + 4 (reserves) = 14
Tamar 23 + 4 = 27
Severn 35 + 9 = 44
Trent 29 + 8 = 37
Mersey 26 + 5 = 31
Tyne 4 + 2 = 6

https://rnli.org/what-we-do/lifeboats-and-stations/our-lifeboat-fleet

"That’s why we want the entire RNLI all-weather lifeboat fleet to be capable of 25 knots by 2019."

That suggests that the Mersey and Tyne classes whose top speed is 17-18 knots will be replaced by Shannons in the next two years. (ie 18 boats per year) The other models have a top speed of 25knts.

As they have also said that they will be focusing on the Shannon and Tamar models in the future, that leaves a potential of 81 boats (Severns and Trents) to renew (give or take). At a rate of 18 boats per year (give or take) that's capacity assured for the next 5 years.

Then what?