Has the RNLI lost the plot?

[Sybarite]

A little knowledge may indeed be dangerous, when you're comparing boats as you usually do, feel free to tell us of your experience on Tamars and Shannons. .

Let’s just talk about the new generation boats because that is what will count in the future.

The Shannon is an excellent boat; there is no doubt about that. It is very manoeuvrable because of its twin jets.

However I have the evidence of my own eyes that the hull does not pass as well through the water as the “pantocarene” hulls of the French boats. Below I will show where this has been demonstrated conclusively.

It should be noted that the SNSM do have jet boats that operate at over 30knts. These are used advantageously for inshore rescues. The larger boats such as those sold to the Dutch can also be fitted with jets.

The new AWB (CTT) has a Pantocarene hull. It is 58’ long and has exactly the same 650hp Scania engines as the 46’ Shannon and has the same top speed. If they scale the CTT back to 2000 rpm they have an economic speed of 20-22 kts using 75 l/hr.

It should be noted that the 58’ CTT was delivered for approximately £1.1m compared with £2.1m for the 46’ Shannon. (Even forgetting the £1.5m trailor necessary to launch certain of them).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFxhFPRaEp8

Here you have some of the coxswain’s comments :

• No comparison with the old one
• Faster
• Comfortable in all sea states
• Well sound-insulated
• Sea worthy no matter from which direction the wind and waves.
• Congratulations to the architect and builders –they could not have done better....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaprFQW7nTg

Here you have a comparison between traditional type hulls such as the Carmac-inspired hull used by the Shannon and the Pantocarene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C24xDv-FmKM

Pantocarene pilot boats showing the smoothness in passing at speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j97o4MTOEbw

Camarc designed hulls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUIulN6RvYo

Shannon in rough water

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpSQejLKDNw

(See 0:20)

 

[JumbleDuck]

Here you have a comparison between traditional type hulls such as the Carmac-inspired hull used by the Shannon and the Pantocarene.

It's sad, I think, that so many posters feel outraged at the very idea of investigating the possible benefits to RNLI crews of offering them French-designed hulls. It seems to be a particularly xenophobic version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I've been a trustee of a charity - a tiny local one - and one thing that keeps getting missed is that charities are often saddled with conditions on bequests, so that funds may not be used for any purpose other than that designated by the donor. They are also required to use funds ONLY in support of the charity's stated aims, which is monitored by the Charity Commissioner. The first may well mean that funds have to sit in a bank account accumulating interest until the very specific conditions of the bequest come up again. We've had an example already; a previous post mentions a legacy that can ONLY be used to provide new boats at a particular station. Sometimes, if it is clear that the condition of the bequest will never arise again or is inappropriate the courts might agree to the condition being set aside or varied - but it is a difficult process. I would imagine that the RNLI must face this one every time a station is relocated if the terms of bequests state explicitly that the funds must be used to support a particular station. But if the station continues, then there may well be substantial amounts of money simply sitting there until the circumstances that will unlock it arise. Churches often get hit with this one - in the days before universal state-provided education, it was common for people to leave money for the Church to use for education. This was often set up as a specific charity (it was one like that that I was briefly trustee of), and the aim of the charity was to provide funds for the Church to use for education. The problem here is that the aim of the charity is no longer needed (the state provides free education out of taxation), and the Church is literally lumbered with money that it can't use! Unless/until the situation becomes such that the charities need to be reorganised (as happened in our case after the sale of agricultural land for development, resulting in the finances being completely silly!), a charity may have no alternative but to sit on an ever increasing pile of money.

 

[dogleg]

Let’s just talk about the new generation boats because that is what will count in the future.

The Shannon is an excellent boat; there is no doubt about that. It is very manoeuvrable because of its twin jets.

However I have the evidence of my own eyes that the hull does not pass as well through the water as the “pantocarene” hulls of the French boats. Below I will show where this has been demonstrated conclusively.

It should be noted that the SNSM do have jet boats that operate at over 30knts. These are used advantageously for inshore rescues. The larger boats such as those sold to the Dutch can also be fitted with jets.

The new AWB (CTT) has a Pantocarene hull. It is 58’ long and has exactly the same 650hp Scania engines as the 46’ Shannon and has the same top speed. If they scale the CTT back to 2000 rpm they have an economic speed of 20-22 kts using 75 l/hr.

It should be noted that the 58’ CTT was delivered for approximately £1.1m compared with £2.1m for the 46’ Shannon. (Even forgetting the £1.5m trailor necessary to launch certain of them).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFxhFPRaEp8

Here you have some of the coxswain’s comments :

• No comparison with the old one
• Faster
• Comfortable in all sea states
• Well sound-insulated
• Sea worthy no matter from which direction the wind and waves.
• Congratulations to the architect and builders –they could not have done better....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaprFQW7nTg

Here you have a comparison between traditional type hulls such as the Carmac-inspired hull used by the Shannon and the Pantocarene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C24xDv-FmKM

Pantocarene pilot boats showing the smoothness in passing at speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j97o4MTOEbw

Camarc designed hulls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUIulN6RvYo

Shannon in rough water

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpSQejLKDNw

(See 0:20)

I have mentioned to you before that the Shannon video you use to support your views is of a boat on trials and as such had not been officially passed out. Look carefully and you will see no RNLI logos, no operational number (13--) on bow etc. The boat was undergoing trials with monitoring devices for slamming , roll, pitch etc into rough weather in this case the Portland Race I believe. I know the trials coxswain and he was perfectly happy with it.The video was taken before the final adjustments and modification as a result of extensive trials.

 

[Angele]

I've been a trustee of a charity - a tiny local one - and one thing that keeps getting missed is that charities are often saddled with conditions on bequests, so that funds may not be used for any purpose other than that designated by the donor......

Yes. A little over £100m of the RNLI's investments is limited in that way. More than one third of the total.

 

[Sybarite]

I have mentioned to you before that the Shannon video you use to support your views is of a boat on trials and as such had not been officially passed out. Look carefully and you will see no RNLI logos, no operational number (13--) on bow etc. The boat was undergoing trials with monitoring devices for slamming , roll, pitch etc into rough weather in this case the Portland Race I believe. I know the trials coxswain and he was perfectly happy with it.The video was taken before the final adjustments and modification as a result of extensive trials.

Does that affect the basic point I was making? Remember, 2012 was after the hull redesign.

There are other videos on line which show the interior of the boat and you can see how the crew are being bounced up and down. In this case the shock absorber seats are justified!

This is 2013 :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BID7406gEs

Hard to imagine them working on their SIMS screens.

Here are views of the interior of the CTT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU6YQR_CyZQ

"it skims the water; it doesn't dig in...."

 

[JumbleDuck]

Churches often get hit with this one - in the days before universal state-provided education, it was common for people to leave money for the Church to use for education.

Older universities have the same problem, as they often received money to support students in very particular circumstances: "men from the parish of Kilfinnan studying medicine" for example, or "daughters of deceased clergymen from Skye". They are an administrative pain - my other half used to administer some for an ancient Scottish university - but the upside is that when a suitable candidate does appear s/he may find that funds have been accumulating for years.

In my penultimate year at school I discovered that there was an Old Boys' Essay Competition, for essays dealing with some aspect of the history of the school, which nobody had entered for twenty years. So I wrote an essay - quite a good one, though I say so myself - and scooped a hundred quid, which was quite respectable. The next year I felt I had to uphold my reputation and did it again, this time winning a miserable fiver. Still, better than nothing, though the hourly rate was terrible.

 

[chanelyacht]

It's sad, I think, that so many posters feel outraged at the very idea of investigating the possible benefits to RNLI crews of offering them French-designed hulls. It seems to be a particularly xenophobic version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here

I think you'll find the RNLI did exactly that prior to designing the Shannon, as indeed they did by evaluating commercially available hulls as well.

 

[chanelyacht]

It would be interesting to hear from someone who has spent significant time on both SNSM and RNLI boats. Are you in that happy position?

Depends how you define significant, I haven't served as crew with the SNSM but have been out on a variety of their boats, including a couple of channel crossings.

The two,organisations boats are very different beasts, there isn't anything in the SNSM fleet comparable to either the Tamar or Shannon in terms of navigation and control systems, and I don't think the French beach launch anywhere (hence someone's continued silly references to RNLI "trailers").

Im not knocking the SNSM boats at all, they are perfectly usable basic craft, but they're pretty much where the RNLI was in the 80s with the Mersey and Tyne classes.

 

[dogleg]

Does that affect the basic point I was making? Remember, 2012 was after the hull redesign.

There are other videos on line which show the interior of the boat and you can see how the crew are being bounced up and down. In this case the shock absorber seats are justified!

This is 2013 :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BID7406gEs

Hard to imagine them working on their SIMS screens.



the interior video dates from the same trials and date as the other video, boat not fully fitted out and equipped as operational lifeboat, the Shannon crews I know have no problem using Sims screens
Here are views of the interior of the CTT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU6YQR_CyZQ

"it skims the water; it doesn't dig in...."

 

[Sybarite]

2013 was the date scheduled for the first delivery of the Shannon. So it must have been pretty definitive as a model.

Can you tell me why 6 crew members need to consulting simultaneously their screens?

 

[Sybarite]

Depends how you define significant, I haven't served as crew with the SNSM but have been out on a variety of their boats, including a couple of channel crossings.

The two,organisations boats are very different beasts, there isn't anything in the SNSM fleet comparable to either the Tamar or Shannon in terms of navigation and control systems, and I don't think the French beach launch anywhere (hence someone's continued silly references to RNLI "trailers").

Im not knocking the SNSM boats at all, they are perfectly usable basic craft, but they're pretty much where the RNLI was in the 80s with the Mersey and Tyne classes.

Obviously you haven't been on the new pantocarene hull boats . The new CTT has state of the art navigation equipment. As their coxwain said "the architect and the yard could not have done better."

Or perhaps you are not capable of seeing the evidence in front of your eyes of how the boats move through the water..??

The trailer is an aberration. When I first looked at it 5 years ago the RNLI said that the Shannon would cost £1.5m and the trailer £800k. Now they are quoted at £2.1m and £1.5m respectively. That equates to a 40% hike in the boat price and an 87% hike in the trailer price. So much for management and cost contrrol in a period when inflation was virtually flat. I'd have been out on my ear if I had got it that wrong.

Great idea to bring the manufacture in-house. They claim that they now save £300k per boat. Are they living in cloud cuckoo land?

A travel lift costs from £150k to £200k It doesn't take a great deal of imagination to adapt one for launching a boat : cradle and caterpillar tracks?

Im not knocking the SNSM boats at all, they are perfectly usable basic craft, but they're pretty much where the RNLI was in the 80s with the Mersey and Tyne classes.

Absolute tosh.

 

[Mister E]

Travel lifts do not work in high winds.

In the past you have suggested.
Deep water moorings with transfer from small RIB in bad weather.
RNLI pay for Breakwaters and the removal of all large beach launched lifeboats.

All this to satisfy you strange obsession that the RNLI are not doing things in a way you approve of. I do not understand why you are like this.

 

[dogleg]

Obviously you haven't been on the new pantocarene hull boats . The new CTT has state of the art navigation equipment. As their coxwain said "the architect and the yard could not have done better."

Or perhaps you are not capable of seeing the evidence in front of your eyes of how the boats move through the water..??

The trailer is an aberration. When I first looked at it 5 years ago the RNLI said that the Shannon would cost £1.5m and the trailer £800k. Now they are quoted at £2.1m and £1.5m respectively. That equates to a 40% hike in the boat price and an 87% hike in the trailer price. So much for management and cost contrrol in a period when inflation was virtually flat. I'd have been out on my ear if I had got it that wrong.

Great idea to bring the manufacture in-house. They claim that they now save £300k per boat. Are they living in cloud cuckoo land?

A travel lift costs from £150k to £200k It doesn't take a great deal of imagination to adapt one for launching a boat : cradle and caterpillar tracks?




Absolute tosh.

Obviously you haven't been on the new pantocarene hull boats . The new CTT has state of the art navigation equipment. As their coxwain said "the architect and the yard could not have done better."Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...RNLI-lost-the-plot/page12#BglQK2lOlEQeF4Jm.99


I am sure that French crews like their new boat, the coxswain's comment mirrors that of Shannon coxswains here so both crews are happy with their new boats, is that not how it should be?

When next in the UK go to a Shannon or Tamar station, ask questions and look at the boat, I assume that you have not yet done this. You may then be able to form a more informed judgement.

 

[dogleg]

one screen is dedicated coxswain command, another is dedicated mechanic

the idea is that all crew members can access any function without leaving seat in bad weather reducing risk however slight of injury and that all crew can access info at any time

 

[Motor_Sailor]

A travel lift costs from £150k to £200k It doesn't take a great deal of imagination to adapt one for launching a boat : cradle and caterpillar tracks?

This I think adequately demonstrates your depth of knowledge about the way the Shannon is deployed.

The moderators won't let my quote exactly what was said when I showed this idea to the crew of a beach launched boat crew!
I think they're going to have the quote framed in the crewroom.
No wonder accountants are held in such low esteem.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... I am sure that French crews like their new boat, the coxswain's comment mirrors that of Shannon coxswains here so both crews are happy with their new boats, is that not how it should be? ...

Of course but that is not the gist of the debate. It is about whether the RNLI are overspending for the service they provide when the same service is being provided elsewhere at a lower cost. For example, could the RNLI provide more lifeboats around the UK coast if they adopted a lower cost design that was technically acceptable. Could the lower cost be achieved by outsourcing design and buying proven hulls, custom fitted. I am sure that many on here have been involved in businesses where such actions have been undertaken to help the business reduce overheads and improve profitability, so it is not exactly an odd thing to contemplate, certainly in my working life, it has been a near constant process. What I find odd is the near 100% rejection of anything Sybarite says on the matter. It is a healthy attitude to business to make these comparisons and if the RNLI were operating like the French, would they be even better, which is kind of the point really.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Older universities have the same problem, as they often received money to support students in very particular circumstances: "men from the parish of Kilfinnan studying medicine" for example, or "daughters of deceased clergymen from Skye". They are an administrative pain - my other half used to administer some for an ancient Scottish university - but the upside is that when a suitable candidate does appear s/he may find that funds have been accumulating for years.

In my penultimate year at school I discovered that there was an Old Boys' Essay Competition, for essays dealing with some aspect of the history of the school, which nobody had entered for twenty years. So I wrote an essay - quite a good one, though I say so myself - and scooped a hundred quid, which was quite respectable. The next year I felt I had to uphold my reputation and did it again, this time winning a miserable fiver. Still, better than nothing, though the hourly rate was terrible.

A really arcane one that I happen to know is that there is a fund to support the orphans of gardeners; I think it's administered by the RHS. Sadly, a young lady I know benefited greatly from this; her father was an RHS accredited gardener, and her mother a garden designer. I think the trust in question was delighted (well, you know what I mean) to have someone to give money to!

 

[dogleg]

Of course but that is not the gist of the debate. It is about whether the RNLI are overspending for the service they provide when the same service is being provided elsewhere at a lower cost. For example, could the RNLI provide more lifeboats around the UK coast if they adopted a lower cost design that was technically acceptable. Could the lower cost be achieved by outsourcing design and buying proven hulls, custom fitted. I am sure that many on here have been involved in businesses where such actions have been undertaken to help the business reduce overheads and improve profitability, so it is not exactly an odd thing to contemplate, certainly in my working life, it has been a near constant process. What I find odd is the near 100% rejection of anything Sybarite says on the matter. It is a healthy attitude to business to make these comparisons and if the RNLI were operating like the French, would they be even better, which is kind of the point really.

RNLI could of course provide more lifeboats, indeed they have opened new stations recently Leverburgh being a good example, there are others. Coastal review is constant but cheaper boats etc would not be the way they go. The RNLI did look at commercial designs for the Shannon and tested several, the decided they were not good enough. Perhaps the question should be asked as to why the French operate on a lower budget, would they like more money, do they have good fundraising procedures and organisation especially inland as the RNLI do (accepting that France is a much larger country which may make inland support more difficult. I would be interested to know what % of their income is from legacies.

 

[JumbleDuck]

What I find odd is the near 100% rejection of anything Sybarite says on the matter. It is a healthy attitude to business to make these comparisons and if the RNLI were operating like the French, would they be even better, which is kind of the point really.

Defensive xenophobia, as far as I can see.