Has the quality of those out sailing dropped to marine equivalent of camper van sailors

[laika]

I would rather be flown by a pilot who learned on a Tiger Moth than one whose only experience was in jets and simulators.

Would you rather be flown by someone with 5000 hours experience of flying big jets, or someone with 1500 hours experience of flying big jets and 3500 hours of flying tiger moths? I might pick the latter if my arch enemy was escaping with a stolen artefact in his dirigible and the local airstrip happened to have a tiger moth fueled up, but in general I'd go for the former.

 

[johnalison]

Would you rather be flown by someone with 5000 hours experience of flying big jets, or someone with 1500 hours experience of flying big jets and 3500 hours of flying tiger moths? I might pick the latter if my arch enemy was escaping with a stolen artefact in his dirigible and the local airstrip happened to have a tiger moth fueled up, but in general I'd go for the former.

I was assuming roughly similar experience overall. It was his ability to fly instinctively that I believe helped that pilot who landed on the Hudson river and saving so many lives. However, my general point remains, that elementary training is often best carried out with simplified systems, from sailing to photography.

 

[Supertramp]

To answer your original question, I think not. What has changed is the reporting of incidents in the media/social media over the last 20 years. In other words everybody sees your cock ups.

Well put.

I think there is a difference between stupidity and carelessness versus the learning of enthusiastic amateurs who have lesser and better planned mishaps which if lucky go barely noticed. I'm in the latter category (I hope).

I have a practice of reviewing how a manouver or passage went and can almost always find some small change to make to gear or actions which often goes in the log.

I think I might get bored if nothing unexpected happened.

I don't see an end to the learning process. And if it does end I shall get on with mundane tasks like maintaining the cabin heating and playing with electronics.

 

[geem]

It is only inverted snobs who see snobbery where it doesn't exist. There are many activities wherein it helps to get a grasp of the essentials by taking part in a simplified or basic form. In case of emergency I would rather be flown by a pilot who learned on a Tiger Moth than one whose only experience was in jets and simulators.

Having seem some poor boat handling skills from people with very expensive boats recently I would agree. Cutting your teeth on a small boat to learn those basic boat handling skills is essential in my view.

 

[capnsensible]

To answer your original question, I think not. What has changed is the reporting of incidents in the media/social media over the last 20 years. In other words everybody sees your cock ups.

Agree. Saw plenty of poor seamanship, particularly amongst charterers right back on our first windies cruise in 2000. Same in places like Greece and other prime charter areas.

However, I'm really not troubled. At least people are out giving it a go.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Agree. Saw plenty of poor seamanship, particularly amongst charterers right back on our first windies cruise in 2000. Same in places like Greece and other prime charter areas.

However, I'm really not troubled. At least people are out giving it a go.

Agreed. It's takes some courage for anyone to start a new hobby or sport these days.

I wonder if it has anything to do with those boats that never move in a marina.

I needed a couple of pints of brown and mild before I asked a girl to dance at the local hop. It was a long walk back when they said no.

 

[capnsensible]

Agreed. It's takes some courage for anyone to start a new hobby or sport these days.

I wonder if it has anything to do with those boats that never move in a marina.

I needed a couple of pints of brown and mild before I asked a girl to dance at the local hop. It was a long walk back when they said no.

Buy them champagne.......?

 

[Sandy]

Well put.

I think there is a difference between stupidity and carelessness versus the learning of enthusiastic amateurs who have lesser and better planned mishaps which if lucky go barely noticed. I'm in the latter category (I hope).

I have a practice of reviewing how a manouver or passage went and can almost always find some small change to make to gear or actions which often goes in the log.

I think I might get bored if nothing unexpected happened.

I don't see an end to the learning process. And if it does end I shall get on with mundane tasks like maintaining the cabin heating and playing with electronics.

I blush easily, thank you.

I have been giving my log book a great deal of thought over the last few weeks. For years I've used the RYA Sail Logbook, but never really been totally happy with it as:

• the boxes to write stuff in a rough sea are too small for me; and
• it does not record all sorts of useful information on one place.

as a result I've been playing with the word processor and working out what I want to record and seeing if I can produce a layout that satisfies my needs. I think I'm about there, a few more tweaks before getting a few pages printed and seeing how it works with the chart table. I am currently looking at two landscape A3 pages!

I know I record lots of data, but am an engineer used to working with large volumes of data in order to make decisions. Currently, I run three separate log books. RYA Sail for navigation (where are we), engine (hours, fuel and filters) and a 'journal' (notes on a passage) and want to merge them into one volume.

I've attached the current working copy and it would be interesting to hear the views of other skippers. The plan is to get it professionally printed and bound.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Buy them champagne.......?

I was fighting them off after I discovered Brute Aftershave.

 

[awol]

I was fighting them off after I discovered Brute Aftershave.

I suspect you mean Brut

 

[justanothersailboat]

I was fighting them off after I discovered Brute Aftershave.

Typo intentional? :-D

Back to the thread: I'm not sure I entirely buy the "many years in dinghies first makes everything right" argument. It teaches the basics of sailing excellently, and I appreciate that's what we're here for, but none of the other skills you need in a bigger boat. I sailed a dinghy before buying my lovely 26ft MAB and discovered that my boat handling skills needed complete replacement (as "jump in and push" wasn't an option), that picking up a mooring buoy on my own was a scary new world, that loads on running rigging were now often high enough to need planning and winches rather than impromptu brute strength (what do you mean I can't just hold the jib sheet in the right place in midair?), anchoring, navigating somewhere unfamiliar, bigger seas, suddenly I had to cope with all this stuff with half an eye on passengers or kids, all of it. I imagine there's almost as big a gap again with a boat twice the size, mostly stuff I don't know yet, but probably including systems I've never tried, sails I can't lift, not being able to manhandle the boat on a mooring line or lift the tender aboard without help, terrifying techno-toilets... hope one day I find out.

So I can forgive anyone not knowing some aspect of handling their boat regardless of size, so long as they're learning.

The not learning on the other hand... :grr:

 

[Supertramp]

I blush easily, thank you.

I have been giving my log book a great deal of thought over the last few weeks. For years I've used the RYA Sail Logbook, but never really been totally happy with it as:

• the boxes to write stuff in a rough sea are too small for me; and
• it does not record all sorts of useful information on one place.

as a result I've been playing with the word processor and working out what I want to record and seeing if I can produce a layout that satisfies my needs. I think I'm about there, a few more tweaks before getting a few pages printed and seeing how it works with the chart table. I am currently looking at two landscape A3 pages!

I know I record lots of data, but am an engineer used to working with large volumes of data in order to make decisions. Currently, I run three separate log books. RYA Sail for navigation (where are we), engine (hours, fuel and filters) and a 'journal' (notes on a passage) and want to merge them into one volume.

I've attached the current working copy and it would be interesting to hear the views of other skippers. The plan is to get it professionally printed and bound.

Thread drift I know.

I've printed it out and will let you know any thoughts. First impression is that it covers all the data I could collect on passage and complements the logbook, position on chart and my little red book of observations, learnings and general data. A3 size needed. I especially like the idea of monitoring trends in electric usage and engine maintenance.

 

[Concerto]

I blush easily, thank you.

I have been giving my log book a great deal of thought over the last few weeks. For years I've used the RYA Sail Logbook, but never really been totally happy with it as:

• the boxes to write stuff in a rough sea are too small for me; and
• it does not record all sorts of useful information on one place.

as a result I've been playing with the word processor and working out what I want to record and seeing if I can produce a layout that satisfies my needs. I think I'm about there, a few more tweaks before getting a few pages printed and seeing how it works with the chart table. I am currently looking at two landscape A3 pages!

I know I record lots of data, but am an engineer used to working with large volumes of data in order to make decisions. Currently, I run three separate log books. RYA Sail for navigation (where are we), engine (hours, fuel and filters) and a 'journal' (notes on a passage) and want to merge them into one volume.

I've attached the current working copy and it would be interesting to hear the views of other skippers. The plan is to get it professionally printed and bound.

Presumably you are going to hand write all entries. May I suggest this could then all be transferred to an Excel file for a permanent record that could then calculate enery usage, diesel consumption, fuel economy, etc.

 

[Sandy]

Presumably you are going to hand write all entries. May I suggest this could then all be transferred to an Excel file for a permanent record that could then calculate enery usage, diesel consumption, fuel economy, etc.

Quite correct @Concerto. It will be supplemented by data from the Garmin chart plotter and the Victron kit.

 

[NormanS]

Presumably, when you are recording fuel consumption, you will include food for humans, and the varying rates, related to physical effort and temperature. ?

 

[Sandy]

Presumably, when you are recording fuel consumption, you will include food for humans, and the varying rates, related to physical effort and temperature. ?

Not specifically. Unless the supply of dark cholate digestives get critical for my 0300 - 0600 watch.

 

[Stemar]

I sailed a dinghy before buying my lovely 26ft MAB and discovered that my boat handling skills needed complete replacement (as "jump in and push" wasn't an option), that picking up a mooring buoy on my own was a scary new world, that loads on running rigging were now often high enough to need planning and winches rather than impromptu brute strength (what do you mean I can't just hold the jib sheet in the right place in midair?)

It's a bit the same moving from a 20-something boat to a 40 footer. If Jissel got a bit wayward coming alongside, a tug on a rope would bring her back into line, My mate's 39 footer had other ideas, so winging it was a risky option; If you didn't plan ahead things could go wrong very quickly. Smaller boats are easier in all ways except accommodation.

 

[Sandy]

Smaller boats are easier in all ways except accommodation.

and capsizing 20 times in a day. ?

 

[Crisby]

It is only inverted snobs who see snobbery where it doesn't exist. There are many activities wherein it helps to get a grasp of the essentials by taking part in a simplified or basic form. In case of emergency I would rather be flown by a pilot who learned on a Tiger Moth than one whose only experience was in jets and simulators.

Unfortunately the sad fact is that 99% of commercial pilots now train in simulators for the majority of their training with very little light aircraft, let alone solo, flying. I saw this change over a 30 year career but it didn’t seem to affect their competence as the levels of training were very high and highly regulated. On top of that they all wanted to learn, maybe that is the difference with some of the examples quoted on this thread.

Chris

 

[Stemar]

and capsizing 20 times in a day. ?

Well, I did my best with my little Snapdragon. Got the cabin windows under water once, but never managed to tip her right over!