Harbour Authority powers? pl

[Capt Popeye]

Can anybody point me in the right direction over a dispute with a local Harbour Authority, please?

This must have happened before in the UK!

My local Authority are, apparently, claiming that I have to place my Vessel above the MHW mark, so as to place it outside their management control, as I have not paid them to investigate wether or not they have a suitable mooring for my vessel.

The local Harbour Authority insist that any application for a suitable mooring is accompanied with a £35 fee, non refundable, with no certaintity of a suitable mooring, and will not give any information about moorings currently available. (this is a bit of a puzzle, as the moorings are limited in number by the Crown, and the Authority are aware of how many are leased out in any season, so a very simple sum of Total number minus leased out equal the number available).

My understanding is, that the River Bed belongs to the Crown (down here in Devon) and they (the Crown) have leased it (or rented it??) to the local Harbour Authority who charge for any moorings laid into the said river bed.

As I am now 'tied up' to a Council wall, and the mooring rings are above MHW, I consider that I am outside the Harbour Authority management, because i'm not connected to the river bed by any mooring lines etc.

OK, so when the tide goes out i'm high n dry, and sitting on the river bed, but not connected to the river bed at all.

Anyways, any comments most welcome, thank you.

 

[theoldsalt]

Capt Popeye,

Your location is Dawlish so is your query about the river Exe. If so the situation is a little complicated as there are several "authorities" concerning moorings.

Some more information needed please.

 

[Seajet]

Can anybody point me in the right direction over a dispute with a local Harbour Authority, please?

This must have happened before in the UK!

My local Authority are, apparently, claiming that I have to place my Vessel above the MHW mark, so as to place it outside their management control, as I have not paid them to investigate wether or not they have a suitable mooring for my vessel.

The local Harbour Authority insist that any application for a suitable mooring is accompanied with a £35 fee, non refundable, with no certaintity of a suitable mooring, and will not give any information about moorings currently available. (this is a bit of a puzzle, as the moorings are limited in number by the Crown, and the Authority are aware of how many are leased out in any season, so a very simple sum of Total number minus leased out equal the number available).

My understanding is, that the River Bed belongs to the Crown (down here in Devon) and they (the Crown) have leased it (or rented it??) to the local Harbour Authority who charge for any moorings laid into the said river bed.

As I am now 'tied up' to a Council wall, and the mooring rings are above MHW, I consider that I am outside the Harbour Authority management, because i'm not connected to the river bed by any mooring lines etc.

OK, so when the tide goes out i'm high n dry, and sitting on the river bed, but not connected to the river bed at all.

Anyways, any comments most welcome, thank you.

Capt Popeye,

it seems you are using the harbour, and what sort of mooring, laid and paid for by whom ? Presumably not yourself... £35.00 seems very cheap until you get it sorted out.

 

[wotayottie]

If it is a true harbour authority then its powers will be detailed in its bye laws of which a copy will be available to the public. They will have the power to charge you for staying in their harbour and to take you to court if you refuse to pay.

But it sounds to me as if you and they are at loggerheads and being awkward.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Thank you theoldsalt & Seajet for comments

Just to clarify (c'aus I was half asleep when pposting)

Its the Teignmouth Harbour Authority that i'm in discussion with; the Harbour is not 'man made' its the mouth of the river Teign, in fact, the Authority seen to do bgr all in the Harbour, its silting up very badly, most moorings out of the main deep channel are drying moorings with a 'window' of about 3 hrs.

Anyways, the story -

I had 'Philis' up on the MHW mark to give tlc, small repairs and some painting for the 'season'. Not looking for a proper drying mooring I opted for a 'running line' to an existing 'sinker', to prevent 'broaching to' and be be managed from the 'shore', (the Local council Teignbridge, do not make a charge for craft on their ground), anyways, the Harbour Authority spied what I had done and said that I must pay a small sum to make the 'arrangement' permanent, (the sinker in the river bed), this offer I found to be well OK and made arrangements to visit and pay. I next get an email, 3 days later, saying that it was a mistake and that all offers are withdrawn and I must complete a proper application form and pay the £35 fee for my application to be considered in due course. Anyway, they stated, I cannot have my prefered location, which I carefully selected, as it suits my special medical requirements.

So now I propose to 'tie up' alongside a Council Wall, therfore not using (at present) any Harbour Authority mooring facilities at all untill matters are resolved. These 'tie up rings' appear to have been in use since at least Victorian times, bloody massive in size, so very secure.

Ah well, its been a case of 'one step forward and two back' this last couple of weeks.

 

[oldharry]

Teignmouth harbour authority is a 'duly constituted Harbour Authority'. Like all HA's they have wide powers for organising and running it. The seabed there is owned by Crown Estates.

Harbour Authority powers extend to the MHWS mark defined by Admiralty charts, and if your boat is below the mark it is 'in' the harbour, and is subject to whatever charges and regulations the Harbour Board have in force, and as owner you are bound by those regulations. Crown Estates can not and will not get involved, even though they are the legal owners.

Harbour Authorities have a legal right to organise and control any moorings laid, and to remove and dispose of installations and boats that do not comply with their requirements, at the owners cost. They are also responsible for safety of vessels using the harbour, and again can require and if necessary carry out the removal any vessel or mooring on their own authority and at the owners cost.

In other words they have the whip hand, can seize and dispose of your boat while it is in the harbour (after due notice), and remove the mooring - then send you the bill! Not only that, but they can keep any money they make from selling on your boat after they seize it. The Chi HM has an auction of any boats they have seized that have not been claimed by the owners. They charge around £100 if they have seized a boat without a licence and taken it off to their Itchenor base for disposal. A few years back they had a nice little Corribbee in the auction, but somebody realised the owner was hospitalised and was able to recover it for him.!

I think your best bet will be to go and see the HM in person, bury the hatchet, explain your medical needs, and see if he is prepared to help. Sounds as if one of his minions thought your installation would be OK, until the boss saw it and disagreed!

Unfortunately if you have upset him already and he decides to be difficult , then there's nothing you can do. Its his harbour, and he is responsible for everything that goes on in it.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Thank you 'wotayottie' & 'oldharry' for you coment & observations!

Well this recent prob has had its 'twists and turns' - actually it was the Harbour Admin / Snr Harbour Assistant who first gave me the Ok for the 'running line', then another Harbour Admin said no, do it another way; then when I approached the Harbour Master direct for clarification, and he gave the original OK the 'thumbs up' but with restrictions; sub to this all was recinded and back to square zero. Bloody hell!

I have found the Harbour Master to be approachable, and most of the Admin as well, but there is a certain prob person (no not only me finds so), but as you all say, perhaps best to reach out to the Harbour Master himself, and see what can be achieved!

I might add, that some of the moorings in the River Estuary (Teign) have been tested in court and found in favour of local residents, longshoremen and fishermen, who, as I understand it, claimed long long rights to moor, before Harbour Authorities were a gleam in someones eye.

Ah well, onwards and upwards as they say.

Thanks to all.

 

[oldharry]

Yes, if you can prove that your mooring was there before the Harbour Authority was established, or in open waters before the FEPA regulations 1956, then there is an established right for an individual to lay and maintain a mooring.

Unfortunately it is no longer possible to go and lay a mooring for yourself, and it has been tested and established in court (1967) that there is no public right to lay a mooring anywhere, even outside HA control.

That doesn't mean you cannot lay one, though you will need landowners written consent, and either an existing licence from DEFRA under FEPA1956 regs, or since 2009, an MMO licence.

Anyone wanting to lay a new mooring in public waters is advised to contact the RYA, as they have been working hard to obtain a simplified and streamlined application for an MMO mooring licence, since BORG raised it as an issue with MMO earlier this year. I am told this costs a one off fee of around £160.

If a harbour authority controls the water, then you only need their permission, if you can get it.

 

[Capt Popeye]

A very special thank you is due to 'oldharry' for his knowledge and wisdom in these matters

 

[Capt Popeye]

Just a thank you to the posters who offered comments etc.

The matter is now resolved with the Harbour Master and Assistant, I have my Beach Drying mooring but in a slightly different part of the Beach, and a quite small fee to be paid, so i'm a happy bunny

 

[wotayottie]

Harbour Authority powers extend to the MHWS mark defined by Admiralty charts.

Thats not correct. The harbour authorty area is defined by the powers granted to each individual harbour authority and dont even necessarily include what we would call a harbour. For example, Gloucester harbour authority covers the area down to where it joins with the bristol and the newport ones ( ie a large area of "open sea") but does not include gloucester docks

The OP needs to get himself a copy of the specific harbour bye laws which will tell him what the HA has the power to do.

 

[oldharry]

QHM at Portsmouth controls a large part of the Eastern Solent as well, but to be 'in' the harbour you have to be below the HW mark, except where the HA actually owns land or docks. General rule is if your boat is above the HW mark then it is not 'in' the harbour or liable for dues.

Heard on QHMs VHF working channel about 20 years ago to a small coaster making its way in past the forts in a wearily patient voice "The idea IS sir that you request permission to enter Portsmouth when you reach the Nab, not leave it until you are half way up the harbour!"

 

[wotayottie]

I guess that government / mod / military harbours operate differently but there is no doubt that the rules for commercial harbour authorities are as I said in their bye laws.

 

[oldharry]

MOD etc have their own rules, National Security and all that. Otherwise yes, individual harbour orders will define the actual limits in any specific place, but you can be pretty certain even if your boat is tied to private land, if it is below the charted HW mark, it is 'in' the harbour, and subject to harbour regs, which was what the OP was asking.

 

[Malabar]

A Harbour Authorities power is generated from an Act of Parliament for that particular harbour. These days it is in the form of a "Harbour Revision Order". The HRO will specify the harbour limits and usually delegate various powers to enable the authority to run the harbour safely. Recently harbour authorities have been granted powers of "General Direction" General directions are a more user-friendly way of running the harbour as they can be kept up to date more easily than bye-laws. These powers of General Direction always come with the caveat that harbour users and other interested parties such as the RYA must be consulted before they are instituted.