Hanse320/325 vs older boat

[Dragonology]

Hi

So I'm in the market for my first bigger boat, having sailed dinghys, crewed on friends yachts and, at this stage, done my Day skipper courses. I'm looking for something around 32 foot, with a rear private cabin, for up to £50k. Sailing mainly on the East coast initially, but with visions/plans of longer trips cross channel, Holland, maybe even to the baltic. I'll be sailing with a mixture of a) my wife and 2 boys (9 and 10), b) with friends and c) single handed

I absolutely do not want to start a thread about the debate I've seen ranging on this, and other, forums, i.e. - older, generally heavier boats (Moody, Westerly) vs new European production boats. However, I had formed a view that as I am definitely not a fair-weather sailer (ie. I actually quite like a F5 trip in driving rain!), I would probably err towards something like a Moody 31, Westerly Storm or Hunter Channel 31 just because I'd like something in between a Bluewater heavy displacement job, and a lightweight modern design (nothing against such things, just want something that will stand up for itself a bit in a chop)

However, I recently came across the Hanse 320/325 - on paper its a bit heavier than most of the AWBs I've looked at - and so has a comfort ratio almost identical to something like a Moody 31 (25.15(H) vs 24.47(M)) - Now, I know that the CR is just a number - but given the sub 20 score of many of the other more modern boats I'd looked at - I've become interested. I'd already started to worry a bit about the now age of Moodys/Westerlys - so the attraction of a 20 year newer boat, for 'only' about £15-20k more, but with similar (better?) sailing characteristics is pretty strong .

So - just thought I'd gauge opinion - anyone sailed a Hanse 320/325 - and if so any thoughts.? Also - more generally, any views on modern equivalents of the 90's Moody and Westerly 32ish foot boats? - All ideas gratefully received - thanks

 

[doug748]

You would have to part with the thick end of 50k for a good Hanse,, well removed from the up front cost of a Moody 31.

For that sort of dosh I might look for a good Elan 333, which, though a lively/lighter boat, will still have a handy ballast ratio when filled with cruising junk.

PS
Welcome BTW.
.

 

[pvb]

Welcome to the forums!

Ted Brewer wasn't entirely serious when he dreamed up that "comfort ratio" formula, and it's not particularly respected. You'd be right to go for a more modern boat, your family and friends will appreciate the better facilities, and you'll appreciate the easier sailing. More modern boats are generally better built and will have better equipment.

 

[johnalison]

I can't give specific advice but I have sailed in company with Hanses and a friend had the 370 of that vintage. My impression is that they are decent boats for those who want something a bit more rewarding to sail than a Bavaria say. Fitting out is a bit more bland than the older British boats you mention, which would feel 'cosier' inside.

I think the Hanse would gain for you by having a fractional rig, without a large genoa to handle, but my impression is that their performance, although decent, is not as exceptional as some owners might want to think. For a family, you might find the older boats have deeper cockpits and feel psychologically more secure, but this could be dealt with by having dodgers and judicious use of harnesses and lifejackets, especially for the children.

 

[Daydream believer]

I have a 2003 hanse 311 from new so i am biased. I sail single handed 95%of the time but my wife & daughter often visit me for at least 14 days every year in port be it ostend or the CIs. We have had hols for 4 up dutch canals & CIs etc. 4 is more than enough we did have 6 for 14 days once but my patience was really tried?
Fantastic boat for SH sailing & safe apart from the fact it does not heave too in heavy weather. That is a feature of many Hanse. I am talking about going below & shutting the hatch, not sitting by the helm & tweeking it every so often.
It is directionally unstable so one cannot let the helm go for a split second. One needs a good autopilot. I have burned out several & have an aeries. That being said i love it & understand these quirks. I have done many passages over 100 miles SH no problem. Manouvering is excellent. I have done over 300 lock passages 60% SH no problem & always stop in marinas. Good boat in heavy weather
As for performance. A moody 31 has been mentioned i can wipe the floor with them. I have not noticed any slamming that some say awbs suffer from
My 2 round uk sh trips averaged 6 kts for the whole trip.
The boat ( when sailed by my son) will hit 6.5kts through the water with ease upwind & stay there
Boats built in the 2003-2007 are well built. I do not like the later models
Re the elan go in the heads & try standing up to uset the loo. Unless you are hung liket a donkey you will end up with wet feet?
The heads in my hanse aret excellent & the berths are long
Single line reefing is good
I sail east coast & find no issues with 1.75 draft. I do normaly cruise down to Camaret often or Cis when covid permit. I do lots of weekend trips to Boulogne & Ostend etc Average 2000m PA since i retired 9 years ago at 65
But i am biased so best you go & look & try one first

 

[Tranona]

Hanse 325 was on my short list along with Jeanneau 32i and Bavaria 33 when I bought new in 2015 and would have ended up second in the final cut. What I liked about it was the self tacking jib and generally easy handled rig and overall quality of equipment and build. Downsides were cramped interior (comparatively) and particularly an unworkable cockpit, primarily the wheel being too close to the transom and too big meaning you have to climb on the side benches to get forward to deal with the mainsheet on the coachroof. Not a problem necessarily with an active crew but I sail mainly on my own. Although I am not a "demanding" sailor I was attracted by the supposed better sailing qualities, although never got round to testing this. Also I might have figured out ways of improving the ergonomics as the offer was for one of the last production batch and was significantly cheaper than the other 2, but overall my final choice (Bavaria 33) was better value as it is bigger, better laid out for single handing, sails better than the Bav 37 it replaced and is extremely well built.

Probably only partly helps, but a couple of other observations may help. First, weight. For a given notional length many modern cruising boats are at least as heavy as older boats - Hanse 5200kgs, Bavaria 33 5500 kgs, Storm 5200kgs Moody 336 5720kgs. This is because they are simply bigger in volume, but weight is distributed differently, less in the keel more in the hull, but keels are generally deeper and higher aspect ratio which together with taller fractional rigs mean they have different sailing characteristics (although not all, particularly my boat are directionally twitchy as suggested above!) As for heavy weather sailing - AWBs are not at their best in those conditions particularly going to wind. Safe but uncomfortable. While it can be fun with the "lads" or as a challenge to single handers I expect you will find that your enthusiasm may not be shared by your wife and boys who will be more attracted by the space, hot and cold running water, the fact that everything works, the headlining does not fall down, ability to slip of the stern platform for a swim, have a barbie in the cockpit and all the other things that make family cruising such fun!

The second point echoes pvb above. Modern boats are infinitely better built and newer ones in particular (because of the age) are very well equipped and easy to live with. However the entry fee to ownership is much higher even if you could find one for sale in these strange times. Anything 32'+ built this century in decent nick is likely to be £35k+ and from the era of the 320/5 closer to £50k. Actually not many of those models were sold so even in more normal times difficult to find. Not a good time to go hunting as there are so few boats for sale, but take the family with you. There are no "bad" boats - they don't survive in the market and I expect you will find "the" one jumps out at you when you see it.

 

[Daydream believer]

You are correct about the wheel on the hanse so I have the tiller & the mainsheet track to sort the problem plus give better sail control.More so when single handing. The tiller goes better with the Aeries

 

[matt1]

Can’t comment on the specific Hanse model as I have a 418 which I’m very happy with from both a quality & handling perspective. To that extent I can only really endorse J&V as designers but plenty of race boat results talk more to that than I ever can!

I did however have a Hunter Channel 31 before the Hanse and that is a very accomplished boat. The hulls / decks are very well executed and she was a rocket ship. If you like to sail then she won’t disappoint. If you go down the Hunter route, PM me as I know the 31 inside out.
In short, buy a brand than begins with “H” (not that I am biased

 

[doug748]

Hi

So I'm in the market for my first bigger boat, having sailed dinghys, crewed on friends yachts and, at this stage, done my Day skipper courses. I'm looking for something around 32 foot, with a rear private cabin, for up to £50k. Sailing mainly on the East coast initially, but with visions/plans of longer trips cross channel, Holland, maybe even to the baltic. I'll be sailing with a mixture of a) my wife and 2 boys (9 and 10), b) with friends and c) single handed.......

All ideas gratefully received - thanks

If you decide to look further at the Elan this is an interesting blogette, with stuff like a GZ curve (many manufacturers would rather you did not know [ :- o ] about such things), polar diagram and photos:

Elan 333 Performance

Lead keel levers it above the average, you also stand a sporting chance of avoiding a Volvo engine.

.

 

[RJJ]

I should think if the difference boils down to 15-20k for a 20-year age gap, it's highly likely you've recouped that in terms of maintenance before you even start. Depends very much on the owner of course - but on average, it's reasonable to assume that sellers have under-invested in their boats in the last couple of years of ownership. It doesn't take much in terms of standing rigging, skin fittings, bad antifoul and a deep engine overhaul before you've hit that £15-20k.

Of course, there are owners that will prove me wrong.

Regarding performance, as a reasonably avid modern AWB fan...in my honest opinion, we spend much more time sailing in F2-4 than a F5+. The difference in performance in 6-10 knots is colossal compared to older ladies. Yep, the tradeoff is it's bumpier upwind in a F5+, but it's not as though your gentlemen in Moodys etc are painting watercolours down below either. And they'll be doing it for longer.

 

[Ningaloo]

Can't resist commenting, even though, like Matt, my experience is with larger models. My Hanse 385 transformed my sailing, giving me confidence to do so much more than I would ever have attempted in my Beneteau 32.
Major benefit for me is the great performance, especially upwind, all achievable single handed thanks to the boat having been designed for (rather than adapted) a self tacker.
I am about to take ownership of my second Hanse so I believe in the brand.
Whatever you choose I hope that your new boat opens up new horizons for you.

 

[Concerto]

My advice would be to check whether your wife likes sailing, especially in rougher weather. Your boys will probably take to sailing like ducks to water. This will affect your buying decision massively. Your next consideration is where are you planning to berth and sail from, and the longer the boat, the more berthing will cost. You may find being a member of a club is wise to assist in your learning and group passages to new harbours.

As you are not able to buy a new boat, everyboat will come with some necessry immediate repairs or improvements. Just remember everything with a marine tag is priced a lot more than non-marine items. So allow a reasonable amount for these costs and berthing fees from your total funds. Now you can judge your buying budget.

Dragonology, your list of older boats is good. You could also add the Moody 346, Westerly Tempest 31, Falcon 34 or Seahawk 34. All of these will provide what you are looking for and will give you a comfortable ride and accomodation.

If you do check out more modern boats there will be less choice of boats available as buyers were in to slightly larger boats for the accommodation provided and builders found them more economic to build. These do have a higher volume hull and rely on form stability rather than than keel weight. This does not show as much when just looking at CR numbers. There is a difference when in the water, the modern boat will heel less but move more than an older design. A lot of the wider transom boats have a shallow exit from the water and can be noisy overnight in an aft cabin due to wave slap. New boats also have higher freeboard along with less grip sideways in the water with less hull depth and small keel area, this can make berthing with a cross wind more difficult. I have found many of the modern boats are more bouncy in rougher water, about 10 years ago at the Southampton Show with a SW F5 blowing in the marina and my daughter found a Dufour 32 so uncomfortable she walked off.

If you have read the forum for some time you will see I frequently clash with pvb and Tranona over modern boats and older boats. When I bought my Westerly Fulmar (no aft cabin, hence not recommended) I could have bought a fully equipped new 32ft boat, but although the accomodation in modern boats is better I prefer older boats for comfortable sailing. All the boats that have or may be suggested should fit your requirements but that does not mean you will be able find one secondhand. Even then you will still need to find one in acceptable condition as some can be poorly maintained. In the current market any good boat will sell very quickly. So you will need to know what you want to buy and when any hit the market you must be prepared to act very quickly. Recently a Westerly Ocean 33 was placed on the market with an agent and within 24 hours he had 4 full price offers.

As part of your reseach you may find this PowerPoint presentation I made to the RYA SE Conference last January very useful. https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/3/3f/Concerto.pdf There are some more articles on the Westerly Wiki I have made. This link to one of my YouTube videos and you should enjoy.

Hope this advice is useful and unbiased. Best of luck with your search.

 

[Laminar Flow]

My advice would be to check whether your wife likes sailing, especially in rougher weather. Your boys will probably take to sailing like ducks to water. This will affect your buying decision massively. Your next consideration is where are you planning to berth and sail from, and the longer the boat, the more berthing will cost. You may find being a member of a club is wise to assist in your learning and group passages to new harbours.

As you are not able to buy a new boat, everyboat will come with some necessry immediate repairs or improvements. Just remember everything with a marine tag is a lot more tha non-marine items. So allow a reasonable amount for these costs and berthing fees from your total funds. Now you can judge your buying budget.

Dragonology, your list of older boats is good. You could also add the Moody 346, Westerly Tempest 31, Falcon 34 or Seahawk 34. All of these will provide what you are looking for and will give you a comfortable ride and accomodation.

If you do check out more modern boats there will be less choice of boats available as buyers were in to slightly larger boats for the accommodation provided and builders found them more economic to build. These do have a higher volume hull and rely on form stability rather than than keel weight. This does not show as much when just looking at CR numbers. There is a difference when in the water, the modern boat will heel less but move more than an older design. A lot of the wider transom boats have a shallow exit from the water and can be noisy overnight in an aft cabin due to wave slap. New boats also have higher freeboard along with less grip sideways in the water with less hull depth and small keel area, this can make berthing with a cross wind more difficult. I have found many of the modern boats are more bouncy in rougher water, about 10 years ago at the Southampton Show with a SW F5 blowing in the marina and my daughter found a Dufour 32 so uncomfortable she walked off.

If you have read the forum for some time you will see I frequently clash with pvb and Tranona over modern boats and older boats. When I bought my Westerly Fulmar (no aft cabin, hence not recommended) I could have bough a fully equipped new 32ft boat, but although the accomodation in modern boats is better I prefer older boats for comfortable sailing. All the boats that have or may be suggested should fit your requirements but that does not mean you will be able find one secondhand. Even then you will still need to find one in acceptable condition as some can be poorly maintained. In the current market any good boat will sell very quickly. So you will need to know what you want to buy and when any hit the market you must be prepared to act very quickly. Recently a Westerly Ocean 33 was placed on the market with an agent and within 24 hours he had 4 full price offers.

As part of your reseach you may find this PowerPoint presentation I made to the RYA SE Conference last January. https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/3/3f/Concerto.pdf There are some more articles on the Westerly Wiki I have made. This link to one of my YouTube videos and you should enjoy. Salcombe to Isles of Scilly and back

Hope this advice is useful and unbiased. Best of luck with your search.

I would say that is a fair assessment.

Regarding performance, as a reasonably avid modern AWB fan...in my honest opinion, we spend much more time sailing in F2-4 than a F5+. The difference in performance in 6-10 knots is colossal compared to older ladies.

I agree that most sailing is done in winds less than F5. In fact 95% of all sailing is done in winds less than a F6. Of this 80% is done in winds less than F5. These are the statistics.

Your next point, I'm afraid, is not necessarily correct. Light weather performance is dependent on SA/Displ. ratio; not just displacement. A heavier boat with the same ratio as a lighter one will be faster in light airs. That is a physical fact. It is at the higher wind speeds that light boats excel as they have less form resistance and can then reach greater (above displacement) speeds.
A note on contemporary SA/Displ. numbers: Currently the number is calculated using the fore triangle and main only whereas formerly it was based on the SA (including overlapping headsails) that a boat could carry to windward. In this sense the numbers given in Sailboat Data, for example, can be misleading for the older style boats.

 

[matt1]

Hi

So I'm in the market for my first bigger boat,

I absolutely do not want to start a thread about the debate I've seen ranging on this, and other, forums, i.e. - older, generally heavier boats (Moody, Westerly) vs new European boats

How’s that going

 

[siwhi]

A number of years ago we faced a similar choice in similar circumstances. We'd had a couple of seasons experience sailing slightly larger and newer Hanses (345, 355), but opted for a good condition, well equipped, and newly reengined Moody 31. I feel it was the right choice for us (on the west coast of Scotland), and in many ways was the ideal boat for our circumstances. We also saved enough in terms of the price difference to keep the boat running for a number of years and get new sails, etc.

There was less of a wow factor, and it was probably less wife friendly than a newer boat would have been, being older, darker and with more wood inside, and more dated aesthetically. But I didn't feel the sailing aspect of things had many negatives (despite the talk). All lines came back to the cockpit in both cases; a masthead rig was for me a disadvantage when close tacking inshore, but has advantages reaching or running in 'bigger' conditions; and getting asymmetrical kites up was as easy. And yes, to tick the stereotype box, it can be quite mixed and blustery conditions where we were, so the handling and feel I felt were appropriate to the conditions we sailed her in. Rounding the Mull of Kintyre in a decent breeze can be a wet experience, but the boat inspired confidence and would plough on regardless. You could wear her like an old jumper, and never needed to 'drive' or 'manage' her. Never round up in a gust if your crew were slow to dump the main or get stopped in your tracks by a big green wall of water if the helm was daydreaming, rarely slam when falling off one to windward. Conversely, she would be less than ideal for the med or even for marina hopping in sheltered water. The bigger Hanses could really fly on flat water in a breeze, but in a moderate sea state that changed. If my ambitions were to cruise east coast rivers or the Solent area with family in the summer, with the odd trip to Holland or Cherbourg with friends, I think a Hanse would be better suited - more modern living conditions and better sailing for the prevailing conditions are probably worth the extra cost. But a challenging sail to the Baltic? Mmm, tougher call.

I also felt, again often contested on here, that while each boat is unique, in general the specifications of key items on the older boats were better. Things hadn't been downsized to save cost. For example handholds, cleats, windlass, chain, winches, locker lids, hinges, the general solidity, etc. Yes it's all stuff that can be changed, but at cost. Somethings can't be changed like skeg hung rudders which offer some security and safety margin, but make berthing less straightforward, or wheel v tiller, where at this size (and with for example families eating at anchor in the cockpit) I feel tiller is an advantage. Some will say the specs on Hanses are selected to be a better fit for their purpose, and they are certainly not lacking, but I prefer robust, solid and sometimes over specced choices. Again the prevailing wisdom now seems to be that newer boats are better built, and I can't dispute the improvement in factory production processes, methods and materials and design. But that doesn't really fit with my experience on board the boats where more of a built to last approach is in evidence with the (pre-Hanse) Moodys (though no boat is without issues).

Now things have moved on 10 years or so since I faced a similar decision, and I would be more cautious about an older boat, more focused on the survey looking at hidden faults and take more time costing upgrades and maintenance. So things would be more finely balanced. Add more use locally by friends and family as a weekend retreat, rather than ambitious longer cruises to new areas, and it's even tougher to call. As ever it's the individual boat condition that takes precedence in any final decision. But I would emphasize what you already suggested you understand, that it's a horses for courses decision!

 

[RJJ]

Your next point, I'm afraid, is not necessarily correct. Light weather performance is dependent on SA/Displ. ratio; not just displacement. A heavier boat with the same ratio as a lighter one will be faster in light airs.

I am not necessarily correct but neither are you! ?. SA/D does not determine performance, it limits it. Also, below hull speed it's more about SA/wetted surface. Two boats with the same SA/D in which one has a lower-drag hull form (less rocker, higher prismatic, slimmer bows and straighter run to the stern) and more importantly an efficient keel and rudder...well, that boat's going to romp away.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I am not necessarily correct but neither are you! ?. SA/D does not determine performance, it limits it. Also, below hull speed it's more about SA/wetted surface. Two boats with the same SA/D in which one has a lower-drag hull form (less rocker, higher prismatic, slimmer bows and straighter run to the stern) and more importantly an efficient keel and rudder...well, that boat's going to romp away.

Volume increases by the cube, area increases by the square. Hence, displacement, in a SA/Disp. ratio has a much greater effect on SA than hull area in.

We are still talking about displacement craft, right?

In low relative speeds up to 0.9 (which also happens to be the acknowledged "average" speed for sailing vessels) features such as steepness of run, rocker, have much less influence. Actually the exceptionally blunt bows of the cod's head, mackerel tail variety offer suitably low resistance up to relative speeds of 0.5.
Buttock angles of up to 15 degr. will still let you reach "above" displacement speeds. Light displacement craft have by their very nature flatter runs. On the other hand, I've seen plenty of Hanse 315 dragging an "immersed" wide transom through the water with a full crew of German charter guests on board.

On prismatic coefficient and providing we are still talking about displacement craft: A lower CP, of say 0.48, has less resistance at lower speeds (light winds) than a higher one. Commonly, boats are designed with CPs between 0.54 and 0.58. CPs that are higher than this indicate boats that are best on reaching and downwind courses.

An efficient keel shape is important for windward work and as far as the foils are concerned, most of which were developed in the bi-plane era, nothing much has changed in the last 50 years. High aspect improves efficiency, is however more prone to stalling and deep draft is, IMHO, not a benefit in coastal cruising, certainly not on the Dutch and German North sea coasts nor in the Baltic for that matter.

It was my understanding that the OP was looking for a family cruising boat. I know that is a bit of a strange concept these days - I can't remember when I last saw a child in a sailing boat brochure. Cruising requires load carrying capability; that, and especially in the smaller size boat, favours a more generous displacement. While weight is the enemy of speed at the upper end of the spectrum, there is no reason a heavier boat need be slow in light going.

The German magazine "Die Yacht" did a comparative test in rougher conditions (F5) between a Vindo 40 (31'), a Halberg 29 and, as a representative of contemporary design trends, a Sun Odyssey 30i. While it was acknowledged that the Odyssey had the roomiest interior for harbour days, at sea she was the most uncomfortable and handled the worst of all three competitors. The Halberg proved to be the best (and fastest). Depending on the level of your German, there is a video about it on Youtube.

I'm quite willing to accept the benefits of a high volume hull for living on (not to mention the superior heads arrangements (I mean that), as well as the performance edge of light displacement. I'm just not sure why one would recommend a boat for family cruising (with young kids) that in the words of it's proponents is: not directionally stable, requires a highly sophisticated autopilot(and has "burned out" a number of these) and has a propensity to nosedive in 25kts of wind while running under main only (couldn't be that those excellently fine bows have something to do with that?)?

 

[tyce]

I had a Moody 31 for 8 years and now have Beneteau 343 and 3 years into ownership.

Im afraid the Beneteau beats the Moody in everything. Better made (yes you did read that correctly), little to no maintenance, sails like its on a track unlike the Moody which would shoot off in the wrong direction the second you took your hand off the tiller, doesn't slam much, none of the weather helm that I found particularly bad on the bilge keel Moody, stern does not slap anywhere near as much as the Moody31mk11 and the missus loves the clean modern interior.
Don't get me wrong it may seem like im knocking the Moody Im not, the Moody was a fine boat but anyone that thinks the modern euro boats are not as good are either jealous, deluded, listening to much to the old salts at the boat club telling you they will fall apart on the first wave you hit or have not had ago on one. Buy the Hanse.

 

[pvb]

...anyone that thinks the modern euro boats are not as good are either jealous, deluded, listening to much to the old salts at the boat club telling you they will fall apart on the first wave you hit or have not had a go on one.

There's probably a lot of truth in that. If olde worlde boats are so great, why aren't they still being made?

 

[Dragonology]

I absolutely do not want to start a thread about the debate I've seen ranging on this, and other, forums, i.e. - older, generally heavier boats (Moody, Westerly) vs new European boats

How’s that going

Not Brilliantly! However - wow! - Thanks for all posts from everybody - really helpful stuff, and I'm constantly amazed at the willingness of people on this forum to spend the time giving the benefit of their experience - also impressed that a single question about boat choices can lead to such a variety of response - the debate/info on SA/Disp was genuinely an unexpected bonus.

Much to chew over - and thanks for all the ideas - its possible that the basic conceptual question (old vs new) may be answered by the state of the market- its seems like a buying frenzy this year so prices are shall we say, 'healthy' - so tempting to wait another year - however, life is too short, so I'm going to start actually viewing some boats (physically instead of via my laptop) and see what works in the flesh for me and the family (one thing everybody does seem to agree on is that the right boat is ultimately a heart decision not a head one...)

So thanks all once again - I'll post what I end up with - then in a few years time I look forward to also being able to post about how my boat is simply just the best thing ever, while all others are too light/heavy/flimsy/worn out/lacking headroom/tender/slow/cheap looking/cramped/no good in a blow/crap in light airs etc etc etc!!!!