Hands up those who have been fined for not having a registration document

[timbartlett]

Arising from another thread:

If you personally, first hand, yourself, and no-one else has been fined, issued with a penalty notice or prosecuted by the French authorities for not having an original registration certificate, could you let us know?

If you can tell us what was the alleged offence and which law you were supposed to have infringed, better still.

And if you can find a link to the actual legislation, that would be perfect.

Thanks.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Arising from another thread:

If you personally, first hand, yourself, and no-one else has been fined, issued with a penalty notice or prosecuted by the French authorities for not having an original registration certificate, could you let us know?

If you can tell us what was the alleged offence and which law you were supposed to have infringed, better still.

And if you can find a link to the actual legislation, that would be perfect.

Thanks.

Just to spice it up, I will donate £50 to the RNLI for the first British Resident to verifiably come forward. (Or if people would prefer I'll give the cash to them personally.)

Edit: Offer withdrawn. Looks like we've got one.

 

[jaba]

I am not British, so I am not entitled to 50 pounds, but, just for the fun of it,
if you wish you may follow this link and decide if it's relevant

http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2004/luglio/29/barche_italiane_non_sono_piu_co_9_040729106.shtml

 

[Marsupial]

For £50 I will see if I can get my friend to sign on - I was on board when he was fined in Calais . . . . but he is a bit bashful about it.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

For £50 I will see if I can get my friend to sign on - I was on board when he was fined in Calais . . . . but he is a bit bashful about it.

Well I withdrew the offer 'cos Tim found one. However, if your mates receipt has the offence written on it and meets the requirements above then it's game on again for you and your mate (and you + your mate alone).

£50 is cheap to put this one to bed.

 

[chippysmith]

you know I have but all I've got to show for it is a receipt and a large hole in my pocket!

 

[Marsupial]

Well I withdrew the offer 'cos Tim found one. However, if your mates receipt has the offence written on it and meets the requirements above then it's game on again for you and your mate (and you + your mate alone).

£50 is cheap to put this one to bed.

I'll tell you the year - its a long time ago; 1999, the offense was no SSR on board, the fine 300E but sadly my friend declines the offer - just talked to him on skype.

This year we have logged over 3000miles through "europe" and every where we went they wanted our Part One and Insurance docs the insurance to be translated into the local speak..

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

you know I have but all I've got to show for it is a receipt and a large hole in my pocket!

Would you object to scanning/photographing the receipt and posting it so we a can all see it?

 

[al.carpenter]

I'll tell you the year - its a long time ago; 1999, the offense was no SSR on board, the fine 300E but sadly my friend declines the offer - just talked to him on skype.

This year we have logged over 3000miles through "europe" and every where we went they wanted our Part One and Insurance docs the insurance to be translated into the local speak..

300 "euro" in 1999????

 

[al.carpenter]

mea culpa

Err, forget my post above.... of course the euro was introduced on 1st jan 1999.......... getting old I'm afraid. Appologies. Al

 

[rallyveteran]

Err, forget my post above.... of course the euro was introduced on 1st jan 1999.......... getting old I'm afraid. Appologies. Al

...but only as a trading currency. He'd have had a lot of trouble paying a 300 Euro fine in 1999 as Euro notes and coins didn't enter circulation until 1 Jan 2002. Perhaps a first hand report would be more reliable than "yeah it happened to my mate...."

 

[tcm]

Yes, i was fined 1000FF, south of france on the very first trip out, Easter 2000, in Ste Maxime, 8am knock from 3 large douanes. Our reg documents had been kept off the boat in the marina office then in La Rague just 10miles away over winter. We phoned la rague who faxd it over, no good. Cash, no credit cards.

I believe the logic behind the French on-the-spot fine for not having the ORIGINAL derives from the way in which the French sailing tax is paid and -and shown to have been paid - each boat has an orange registration doc (a logbook) and you stick a little lick-to-stick square stamp in it to show you've paid this years tax. A photocopy could of course be made to looks as tho the tax has been paid - only an original of the french reg do unambiguoulsy shows if the annual tax has been paid.

 

[capsco]

I was fined by French in 1992, no docs apart from purchase invoice from broker, from memory it was 300F [long time ago] bringing newly purchased, used MB from Mallorca to SOF.

Sorry no docs, long since filed?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Yes, i was fined

What was the offence?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I was fined

What was the offence?

 

[Bilgediver]

Arising from another thread:

If you personally, first hand, yourself, and no-one else has been fined, issued with a penalty notice or prosecuted by the French authorities for not having an original registration certificate, could you let us know?

If you can tell us what was the alleged offence and which law you were supposed to have infringed, better still.

And if you can find a link to the actual legislation, that would be perfect.

Thanks.

The Ships Registration document in the world of commerce is an important document as are many others used in the marine world and even if we are are only leisure sailors we are supposed to play according to the same rules.

It would be an offence not to produce the original Registration document at most foreign Ports of Arrival . Just think yourself lucky you don t have to present all the others that the skipper of a commercial vessel is asked for

 

[timbartlett]

if we are are only leisure sailors we are supposed to play according to the same rules.

Not according to the 1995 Merchant Shipping Act.

It would be an offence not to produce the original Registration document ...

What offence are you committing by failing to produce a document that you are not required to have? That is precisely what we are trying to find out.

 

[Tranona]

Not according to the 1995 Merchant Shipping Act.

All the Act does is define what a British ship is in broad terms, in just the same way as the Nationality Act defines what a British citizen (of various types) is. This does not remove the need for a British Citizen to be in possession of a passport when visiting a foreign country. This is the British Government confirming that the individual is indeed a citizen. If the individual remains in the UK there is no need to have any proof of identity.

The principle is exactly the same with a small ship. Complying with the definition in the MSA is a pre-requisite of registering the ship on one of the registers. You are then able to demonstrate to foreign authorities the nationality of your ship in order to take advantage of the "comity" aspect of the UN convention. In practice most (but not all) states also allow you to keep a boat in their territory without complying with all or some of their laws. Within the EU, however, they cannot discriminate agaisnt individuals and boats from another EU state.

So, as France seems to have a law which requires ALL boats to have a registration document, a visiting UK yachtsmen must be able to produce one. The fact that it is a UK document is actually irrelevant except in relation to meeting registration requirements in respect of such things as equipment and crewing.

I suppose you could try your argument that your boat meets the UK MSA definition, but suspect that even a native French speaker would have difficulty in persuading French authorities that was sufficient.

As I keep on telling your mate Toad, it is useful to get confirmation from individuals that have been fined for this offence, but if you really want confirmation the law exists (or not) and are not prepared to accept the advice of a range of authoritative published sources, then you need to seek confirmation from the French Authorities (or at least a legal opinion from a suitably qualified French lawyer).

 

[al.carpenter]

hi all

I am waiting for a delivery hence cannot leave the farm right now and go to the Gendarmerie in Cherbourg, so I called them (13.10.10-1420hrs LT) at the Brigade Maritime (tel 02 33 92 55 29) and the answer to my question "which documents for a british flagged vessel can I be asked to show the french authorities, Affaires maritimes, Douanes, Gendarmerie, Police" when sailing in french waters?" and the answer was straightforward - proof of identity of every person on board, bill of sale for the craft and proof of insurance. (does not have to be translated into french since international language for maritime matters is english...) That's it.
In fact, when I specificaly asked if a SSR registation document was necessary, he said no, they have no say in what a british ship should be providing or having on board in form of papers or security as long as the craft complies with the british law. Since SSR registry is not compulsory in the UK, it is not compulsory in France.
When I asked him where I could find confirmation in writing of his comments, he said on the douanes web site so, will check on post later as right now I am busy. Cheers... Al

 

[westernman]

Not according to the 1995 Merchant Shipping Act.

What offence are you committing by failing to produce a document that you are not required to have? That is precisely what we are trying to find out.

You still don't get it do you.

The offence is:-
Dt 60-799 du 2.8.1960 - Art 2.
Defaut de titre de navigation ou carte de circulation.

Failure to produce your registration document.

You are however correct, that as a British ship you don't have to have one. But you have to produce adequate documentation to prove that you are a British ship, and that as such you don't have to have one. This being France, of course only originals of that documentation will suffice.