Halyard wrap Facnor

[shortjohnsilver]

Had an issue when unfurling the Genoa yesterday (in relatively benign conditions fortunately ) where I had a bit of halyard wrap, preventing the Genoa unfurling.
I was able to back the sail and the wrap unwrapped itself, but when recommencing the unfurl, again the haliyard wrapp and jammed at the very top. I and had to utilise the same method of backing the sail against the wind to free it.
Furled it back in and as I did so I could see the Haliyard flicking back catching, wrapping maybe a half turn, then flicking back again.
This morning had the Genoa down and examined the top furler, which is fine and rotating well. Nonetheless I washed it out let it dry and lubricated it with dry silicon lubricant spray. It was spinning completely free. Back up with the Genoa and really the same situation persists. It seems that the haliyard exits the mast and drops to the top of the upper furler. As it does does so it sort of passes around bends around a deflector, that is supposed to ensure haliyard wrap wrap doesn’t happen.
The facnor booklet refers to this deflector as a deflector ‘wheel’ ?
Wheel to me intimates that it rotates. But should this deflector rotate or is it static?
I understand that there needs to be a reasonable amount of tension to retain the haliyard lead correctly. So I tensioned the haliyard and this seemed to make things worse. I relaxed the tension and there was an improvement. The Genoa furls and unfurl easily now without any use of a winch - as it has always been the case - but I can still see and feel to a degree, the haliyard flicking back and forth around this deflector wheel and not sure that it should.
If this deflector wheel should rotate then I’ll need to get up there and free it off. If it doesn’t and that would be my thinking, then is there an issue with the forestay ?
Bloomin’ hope not!
Sorry for the length of this post, but I was hoping that there are some forum members who have or have had experience with the Facnor furling gear and might be able to give some advice or even put my mind to rest. The boat is Beneteau 36 double spreader rig with a massive Genoa and to have this problem when at sea in difficult decisions will not sit well with my Mrs.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Could the deflector have worn through? I recently had my mast down for new rigging to be installed, and while it was down I found that the deflector for my Furlex system was extremely badly worn, and would soon have been worn through.

The deflector shouldn't move from side to side - the whole point is that it holds the halliard central and at an angle to the forestay in the vertical plane.

 

[shortjohnsilver]

This is possible I suppose and a trip up the mast will be the way to check this. From what I can see from deck level, the deflector wheel is doing its job and deflecting the haliyard lead at the right angle to the top of the upper furler. It’s just that when furling or unfurling the haliyard slips round the deflector either way, then snaps back in-line behind the furler and directly down from the mast haliyard exit.
At least now that I’ve backed off the tension a bit it doesn’t actually carry on forcing it’s way round and wrapping the top of the Genoa as it was.
I’ve carefully read the Facnor instruction download and there’s no mention of whether this deflector heel actually rotates or not, but doesn’t look like it. As you have indicated it shouldn’t.
I’ve jumped on this at the very first time of anything untoward and have not exerted any force by winch on things, so I’m very much hoping that this issue hasn’t caused any forestay unwinding. But again I’ll need to check this when up the mast.
The upper furler is definitely fine and rotating freely…..but…. when underload maybe it sticks a bit? I can check that at deck level though.
To be fair I’ve had the boat ten years and found paperwork that indicates that it was installed in 2002 and I’ve never had a problem. But then if it’s coming out and going in okay and by hand then I’ve never actually looked up.
Thanks

 

[vyv_cox]

This page may give you some ideas Halyard wraps

 

[Mistroma]

I think I have a Facnor LS-200.

Pretty certain that the diverter just spins with the foil. I haven't been up the mast since 2019 but think there's a split plastic insert at the top of the foil and the diverter slots onto them. The insert has flats and so does the diverter. The diverter must therefore rotate with the foil.

I got a twist with no warning back in 2012. It became worse and changing tension only helped initially. The angle and presence of a deflector were exactly as specified by Facnor. The swivel seemed to rotate easily when lowered to deck level but still jammed in use.

I couldn't dismantle the swivel at that time and Facnor advised me to put in some grease. I'm pretty certain the email came from someone with no technical ability. The gap is too small to allow any grease to get near the bearing and I also think Torlon bearings should not be greased.

I solved it by removing the swivel and flushing through with diesel over a period of 2-3 days. Lots of black silt initially but pretty clear after several flushes. I let the swivel bake in the sun (30C+ every day) and let a fair bit of Holts ProLube drain into the swivel before packing the upper chamber with grease and replacing the outer seal. The grease was only there to slow entry of dust and I replace it annually.

It did cure the problem for about 7-8 years. I think it is probably still OK but the lower drum now needs attention.

No sign of any problem with the forestay and I don't think there are any significant rotational forces reaching the wire. The foil rotates around the forestay quite easily, even when the swivel jams. The problem was simply lack of further rotation when the halyard wrapped. It would be different if the foil jammed against the forestay and both rotated together.

You may have a completely different model of course. It would be useful to know the type OP has on his boat.

 

[shortjohnsilver]

Thanks vyv_cox it’s the third image showing the deflector ‘wheel’ Facnor that I have and where the haliyard rightly deflects around, but snatches around forwards when either furling or unfurling either to the right or left. Now that I have eased the haliyard the haliyard gets to about a quarter way round forward either side before being pulled back into is correct position at the rear of he deflector. This process continues until the sail out and then happens again when furling back in.
It’s very much better now but still occurs to a much lesser degree but I can see it’s still happening and feel it through the furling and Genoa sheets, albeit its very light now and the Genoa is easily unfurled and furled again.
I suspect as Mistoma has indicated that the upper furler may not be rotating smoothly as it had and should be, even though when I pulled it down flushed it through with water dried and silicon lubricated it, it had been rotating very easily, without load. I’ll have to have it down again and load it up at deck level as it would be aloft and see what happens. I’ll also thoroughly clean it and lubricate it again.

 

[davidej]

We have a Bene 361 and, I think, a Facnor fuller. After a few incidents of halliard wrap, we installed an additional type of “deflector”- a sort of stainless steel saddle riveted to the mast below where the halliard exits. Threading the halliard through this keeps it away from the wheel.

we have had no problems since.

 

[shortjohnsilver]

davidej, that sounds interesting and maybe a way forward.
So, the saddle riveted to the mast directs the haliyard at a deeper angle to the top furler. Does it still deflect around the deflector wheel but less so, before attaching to the top furler?
I don’t suppose you have any photos? Or maybe who supplied and fitted the ‘saddle’ ?
No worries if not, there had been a fantastic amount of suggestions and ideas given and plenty for me to go forward and sort things out. Thanks all.

 

[Neeves]

davidej,
I don’t suppose you have any photos?

You recognise the benefits and commented on one of Vyv's pictures - why not take some pictures of the top of your mast?

I know nothing of your furler - but was under the impression that a critical part of headsail furling performance was the angle the halyard made with the forestay after its exist from the relevant sheave box. Most instructions for headsail furlers have a specific recommendation for this angle. You have made no mention of the angle the halyard makes to the forestay - possibly your design is more forgiving of halyard angle.

Jonathan

 

[Daydream believer]

We have a Bene 361 and, I think, a Facnor fuller. After a few incidents of halliard wrap, we installed an additional type of “deflector”- a sort of stainless steel saddle riveted to the mast below where the halliard exits. Threading the halliard through this keeps it away from the wheel.
we have had no problems since.

I have a Facnor on a 31 ft boat fitted 2003. & was advised not to apply grease as it attracts dirt. It is enclosed & not serviceable other than spraying water through the slot. My rigger fitted a halyard aligner as described above when the deflector disintegrated & likewise I have found that has worked well. Fortunately, there is room between sail & halyard sheave to get a fair angle for the aligner, as too sharp would prevent proper halyard tension & just rip the aligner off the mast. However, after 18 years the unit must be getting worn, because it is now essential that the halyard is eased prior to operation. The current sail is a laminate self tacker (I rarely use the genoa). I do sometimes apply fair halyard tension, thus putting strain on the aligner.

 

[dje67]

My issues with the 165 furler pretty-much came down to the bearings being fouled-up with corrosion from the circlips that hold the thing together. They looked like mild steel and were quite rusty. If you search threads that I posted a few years back it might give you some more help. After I maintained mine (poss 5 years back) it has been smooth and no longer jerks the way yours does,

 

[davidej]

davidej, that sounds interesting and maybe a way forward.
So, the saddle riveted to the mast directs the haliyard at a deeper angle to the top furler. Does it still deflect around the deflector wheel but less so, before attaching to the top furler?
I don’t suppose you have any photos? Or maybe who supplied and fitted the ‘saddle’ ?
No worries if not, there had been a fantastic amount of suggestions and ideas given and plenty for me to go forward and sort things out. Thanks all.

I'm not hopping up the mast to take a photo, but its one of these
Selden Halyard Lead Deflector
you have probably got a couple on the mast near the gooseneck for the reefing pennants.

 

[Skylark]

We have a Bene 361 and, I think, a Facnor fuller. After a few incidents of halliard wrap, we installed an additional type of “deflector”- a sort of stainless steel saddle riveted to the mast below where the halliard exits. Threading the halliard through this keeps it away from the wheel.

we have had no problems since.

We also had a 361 (lovely boat). Our original Facnor “wheel” fell off and the local Rigger fitted a deflector to the mast, exactly as you’ve described, same one as per your picture in post 12.

 

[tjbrace]

Our boat had a Facnor furler. The halyard deflector wheel had grooves worn into it by the halyard , these grooves then almost guaranteed a halyard wrap.

I lost confidence in the kit and replaced it with Harken several years ago??

 

[shortjohnsilver]

I’m beginning to see that there maybe a combination of issues here, collectively leading to the issue.

1. The upper furler, although rotating freely when there’s no load on it ( at deck level after I’ve flushed it thoroughly and lubricated it with dry silicon lubricant spray) maybe seizing up somewhat when fully up and haliyard tensioned. I’ll repeat the flushing and lubrication process. However, the furler is rotating beautifully.
2. The deflector wheel is failing and as tjbrace has mentioned has possibly grooved whereby the haliyard is dragged around either way.

I’ll need to get up there and have a close look at the deflector wheel and also observe what’s causing the haliyard to drag round when furling unfurling.
I have found after a lot of experiment yesterday that upon easing the haliyard things are much better, albeit it still occurs. Just less so and without directly observing what’s happening, our might not even know that it’s taking place. If I put the tension on though it all becomes stiffer and seems to aggravate things.
This seems to correlate to what Daydream Believer experiences, that he finds it’s necessary to ease the tension before furling unfurling.

And davidej’s haliyard lead deflector ‘saddle’ will bring some directional stability to the haliyard approach to the deflector wheel from the mast sheave and the deflector wheel will ensure the correct angle of approach to the upper furler, so that sounds ideal. However if it’s the deflector wheel that’s defective or grooved then that will need to be sorted. I’ll need to get up there and have a look.
Thanks everyone.

 

[jwilson]

When I had a Facnor it was installed from new with a mast-mounted diverter instead of a wheel. After about 8 years the top swivel expired - new one fitted over £1,000. A year later the bottom drum died, this time about £1,500+ for replacement. Facnor and their importers said that these were non-repairable, though some here have clearly done so. Five years on the "new" top swivel died again, another £1,000+. Then the "new" bottom drum unit got grumbly again last year.....

I junked the whole thing and put on a different make. Wish I had done it when the first big bill kicked in. If you van manage to repair something clearly intended to be non-repairable, good for you, but I am not impressed with Facnor.

 

[MikeCC]

If the furler has needed winching force, check the forestay at the top to make sure the strands haven't unwound.

 

[shortjohnsilver]

Yes, thanks MikeCC I will be checking the top of the forestay when I get up there, but I can honestly say that I have never had the need to winch it in or out, come to that, always been able to by hand, pullling on the furler and holding a little tension on the sheet with the other hand. But….you don’t always have time to keep an eye on other more energetic crew members, when things are bit hairy and you’re otherwise distracted! I’ll be checking, but I don’t believe, or hoping like crazy, that I don’t have that particular issue and that it’s more an issue with the deflector wheel.
Agree with you Jwilson, Facnor furling systems or at least that which I have are maybe not as robust as say Seldon. They Seldon do look far more efficient all round, me thinks, but these things are prohibitively expensive for a retired cruising couple and I’ll realistically will have to sort it out and live with what I’ve got. Thanks all.

 

[Daydream believer]

I'm not hopping up the mast to take a photo, but its one of these
Selden Halyard Lead Deflector
you have probably got a couple on the mast near the gooseneck for the reefing pennants.

I would not use that version for the top of the mast. I have 2 on the mast at gooseneck level & the 2 corners away from the pop rivets tend to pull away from the mast a tiny amount. This catches threads in my reefing lines.( Mine are rigged on my single line reefing system)
On top of that a lot of load goes on the aligner at the top of the mast as it pulls the halyard away from its natural line. My aligner has 4 pop rivets & is a much stronger pattern. I would not want less than 4 fixings & I only have a 31 ft boat.
Just my opinion & others may disagree, but the OP can decide