Halyard Material - Dyneema. Is it worth it?

[Piddy]

Seeing the thread on rope clutches reminded me I need to change the Main halyard this winter.
When we got the boat I dropped a size from the 14mm braid on braid (which has made a nice mooring warp as it's 35m long) as it was just too heavy and jammed in the sheaves.
It was replaced with a 12mm braid on braid which was an improvement in handling - try coiling 20m of 14mm on deck! But.... Despite crunching the halyard up very tight when setting the mainsail, after a spell of hard windward work the luff bags and the main loses its shape. I assume this is primarily caused by stretch in the halyard and secondarily by stretch in the sail.
12mm still feels too big for the size of sail but I wouldn't want to change to something smaller if it was to allow even more stretch.

Do others use fancy material such as Dyneema or Vectran to get round this?

The boat is a Moody 376 so not a racing boat but I hate building in poor performance....

Cheers

 

[flaming]

Seeing the thread on rope clutches reminded me I need to change the Main halyard this winter.
When we got the boat I dropped a size from the 14mm braid on braid (which has made a nice mooring warp as it's 35m long) as it was just too heavy and jammed in the sheaves.
It was replaced with a 12mm braid on braid which was an improvement in handling - try coiling 20m of 14mm on deck! But.... Despite crunching the halyard up very tight when setting the mainsail, after a spell of hard windward work the luff bags and the main loses its shape. I assume this is primarily caused by stretch in the halyard and secondarily by stretch in the sail.
12mm still feels too big for the size of sail but I wouldn't want to change to something smaller if it was to allow even more stretch.

Do others use fancy material such as Dyneema or Vectran to get round this?

The boat is a Moody 376 so not a racing boat but I hate building in poor performance....

Cheers

Assuming you're using one... I suspect clutch slip.

Easiest way to test this is simply to leave the halyard on the winch when going upwind, no bagginess = blame the clutch. Better for the rope too.

 

[bbg]

If you do decide to buy a new (covered) dyneema halyard (after checking via Flaming's advice), make sure your clutches will work with the smaller dimension.

 

[hairbox]

Cruising dyneema

Cruising Dyneema brilliant stuff you can splice it yourself minimal stretch only downside £5.50 a metre.

 

[Adonnante]

Marlow ropes have a graph showing the comparative stretch in various halyards on this web page.

http://www.marlowropes.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29&Itemid=67


I have a 53sq m large roached main on a <5 ton catamaran with a 12mm 2:1 Dyneema halyard. There have been no issues with halyard stretch or slipping through Spinlock clutches. I no longer back up the the halyard on a horn cleat as it could increase the time to lower the main to the next reef but recognise that the clutch needs to be maintenained. I also believe that to thinner rope is more likely to slip but could be overcome by doubling the outer. Present halyard is now ten years old (say 20,000m) and been end for ended once at 5 years.

Peter.

 

[ropeworkuk]

http://www.ropeworkuk.com/page10.html

Another comparison chart for dyneema vs polyester ropes

 

[tt65]

I did it.

My dyneema main halyard is now 2 years old and I am still amazed at how the 42 foot luff stays tight all day long. Vastly better than whatever it was I had before. Same clutch, same winch and same scrawny me.
Actually on reflection this may not be such a good opinion as I replaced the sail which prompted the change of halyard. Very similar fully battened main.
Either way I do not now get a scalloped luff like what i used to.

 

[Piddy]

Assuming you're using one... I suspect clutch slip.

Easiest way to test this is simply to leave the halyard on the winch when going upwind, no bagginess = blame the clutch. Better for the rope too.

Sorry, I should have said - No clutches, just a winch with a cleat. Definitely not slipping as I make sure the rope tension is carried to the cleat as much as possible.


Thanks for the comments - I was hoping for this sort of feedback of others using esoteric materials, so please keep'em coming.

 

[fantasia7628]

Former halyards are not so good as mooring warps as they have very little stretch.

 

[Jamesuk]

we replaced the wire in the davits with Dynemma if they hold well this season will give an update.

 

[snooks]

What is your mainsail made out of? Stretchy Dacron/polyester or laminate/hydranet?

Ideally you want a halyard with minimum stretch, but that will so no good if your sail stretches like a rubber band when you're hit by a gust.

If you're having to crank up the main it sounds like your mainsail or your halyard is a bit stretchy. The mainsail should be just tight enough to remove creases at the luff. But not too tight that you get a crease running from the tach to the middle of the leech.

If your sail is stretching then Dyneema won't make a great deal of difference.

If on he other hand the sail is new and/or a laminate, any stretch in the halyard will show on your sail and Dyneema is the way forward. eBay is your friend I got 35m of 10mm racing Dyneema for £60 for my genoa and it's made a great difference. I want to get a new halyard for the main because even though I have a rope wire halyard the rope part stretches too much and I either have to continually tweak or sit looking at creases!

Couple of points because you don't have a rope clutch you'll be able to go down a rope size from braid on braid. Also, please don't use your old halyards or sheets for warps unless they have some 3 strand (or a snubber) tied on one end to act as a snubber. While your braid on braid creeps it doesn't absorb shock loading of a moored yacht. So the energy of a roll or surge is transferred directly to your yacht via her cleats with out any of the energy being dissapated by the rope as it does with 3 strand or 8 plat

 

[bobgoode]

At the boat show I purchased a piece of 8mm dyneema for a very low price...after a decent spell of haggling. Replaced the 10mm polyester main halyard and sailed for the fiorst time this weekend. BRILLIANT...no more baggy luff as the wind picked up.

 

[simonfraser]

definate, i also need a 30:1 downhaul on 25m of fully battened laminated main to sort it though.
new lewmar clutches (i want to release under load IF needed) as the diameter was a lot smaller.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Do others use fancy material such as Dyneema or Vectran to get round this?

You could use a spliced wire rope halyard - easy to handle the textile end and no significant stretch. Only issue is you must avoid ever letting the halyard frap against the mast.

 

[bbg]

You could use a spliced wire rope halyard - easy to handle the textile end and no significant stretch. Only issue is you must avoid ever letting the halyard frap against the mast.

I'm sorry but a wire / rope halyard is SO 1970s.

There is no need for wire/rope these days. Dyneema is stronger, lighter, less stretchy and has none of the disadvantages of using metal. In addition, changing from rope to wire/rope would mean the OP would have to fit a new masthead sheave.

 

[Piddy]

What is your mainsail made out of? Stretchy Dacron/polyester or laminate/hydranet?

Ideally you want a halyard with minimum stretch, but that will so no good if your sail stretches like a rubber band when you're hit by a gust.

If you're having to crank up the main it sounds like your mainsail or your halyard is a bit stretchy. The mainsail should be just tight enough to remove creases at the luff. But not too tight that you get a crease running from the tach to the middle of the leech.

If your sail is stretching then Dyneema won't make a great deal of difference.

If on he other hand the sail is new and/or a laminate, any stretch in the halyard will show on your sail and Dyneema is the way forward. eBay is your friend I got 35m of 10mm racing Dyneema for £60 for my genoa and it's made a great difference. I want to get a new halyard for the main because even though I have a rope wire halyard the rope part stretches too much and I either have to continually tweak or sit looking at creases!

Couple of points because you don't have a rope clutch you'll be able to go down a rope size from braid on braid. Also, please don't use your old halyards or sheets for warps unless they have some 3 strand (or a snubber) tied on one end to act as a snubber. While your braid on braid creeps it doesn't absorb shock loading of a moored yacht. So the energy of a roll or surge is transferred directly to your yacht via her cleats with out any of the energy being dissapated by the rope as it does with 3 strand or 8 plat

Hi Graham,

You've actually taken pictures of Gallivant in 2002 for a YM review with Simon Jinks although I guess you can't remember them all!

The sails are by Peter Sanders and in Dacron - a few years old but still in good working condition.
It's not so much gusts that cause the problem as when lots of mainsheet or kicker tension is applied. With the big-ish genoa cranked in, the main has to be set close to the centre line of the boat and despite having a towable mainsheet car, inevitably the tension builds up. When setting the main for a breezy sail to windward, it involves putting excessive tension on the halyard (to the point I get vertical creases) so that when sailing the sail sets correctly.

I've seen the eBay adverts for Dyneema - partly that's what prompted the question...

Good point about the size - I would hope to go down to 10mm making it easy to handle and still reducing the stretch.
The comment about the warp - I'm not suggesting for a moment it's any good for breast ropes or springs - it's well in excess of 100' long and is 14mm. It does makes a good rope to distant piles or those moments when a big rope is required.


I do have a wire/rope genoa spare halyard but hate using it. Try getting SWMBO to work with a demonic wire round a winch... With the advent of Dyneema, I wouldn't consider it.

Thanks for these comments and those by others.

 

[lw395]

definate, i also need a 30:1 downhaul on 25m of fully battened laminated main to sort it though.
new lewmar clutches (i want to release under load IF needed) as the diameter was a lot smaller.

A downhaul or cunningham is a good idea, that many cruising yachts miss out on. You can adjust the luff tension without fighting the leech tension.
Even dyneema has some stretch, about 2% at 10% of break load IIRC, but this is much less than ordinary braid line.

 

[snooks]

Hi Graham,

You've actually taken pictures of Gallivant in 2002 for a YM review with Simon Jinks although I guess you can't remember them all!

Moody 376 out of Portsmouth Harbour, it was grey and quit breezy that day. I haven't even looked at the pics cos they are in London and I'm in Largs! She had blue spray dodgers with white writing?

Racing Dyneema is tough to eye splice, but you can do a double fishermans bend, the one where the tail exits parallel but in the opposite direction of the standing part, and winch it tight around a shackle it will be strong enough without going to the trouble and expense of getting it spliced

 

[Piddy]

Moody 376 out of Portsmouth Harbour, it was grey and quit breezy that day. I haven't even looked at the pics cos they are in London and I'm in Largs! She had blue spray dodgers with white writing?

Racing Dyneema is tough to eye splice, but you can do a double fishermans bend, the one where the tail exits parallel but in the opposite direction of the standing part, and winch it tight around a shackle it will be strong enough without going to the trouble and expense of getting it spliced

Spot on. Blustery day but a nice day out even though I felt I was having some kind of YM (YachtMaster not Yachting Monthly!) test from Simon when manoeuvring. He also went through the boat as thoroughly as the surveyor when we bought her...

Splicing isn't too much of a problem. I have access to a set of fids and have done a Marlow splicing evening - and a Godfather whose was a rigger for 20 years!

 

[AIDY]

As said dynema is hard to splice... i just used a halyard knot.

have a word with Simon at youBoat gosport marina he has some good prices on dynema. I bought 40 metres of 10mm racing dynema for about £120 a while back.