Halon extinguishers

[DOK]

OK, I've done a search and trawled through the results but I'm afraid I'm still confused /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I've just had a survey done on what I hope will soon be my boat and the surveyor has pointed out that the engine room extinguisher is a halon system. Now, I know (or think I do) that halon has been banned for some time now, so does that mean that the sytem in this boat is illegal? I believe I am right in saying that should there be a pressure drop I couldn't get the system refilled but do I actively have to replace it anyway?

I know the arguments about how effective halon is, I'm only interested in the rules here. Does it make any difference that the vessel is Part 1 registered?

Lots of questions, sorry - but if it is going to be a problem I'd like to know before I part with my hard earned (or rather, borrowed) cash.

Thanks

 

[Freebee]

As far as I know they are illegal and should be rendered for specialist disposal, your local authority can help here, they have to be replaced as soon as.

 

[Nautorius]

Definitely Insist that the system is relaced prior to purchase or knock off a few hundred to do this yourself. I am surprised any person is still trying to sell a boat with these...well actually I must relace mine prior to sale..oops /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Paul

 

[bdsweeting]

It's not illegal to have a Halon system already fitted but you break the law if it discharges.

As Paul said above, get several hundred pounds off the price for the system the be renewed.

Also, please remember not to breath the gas at ANY time as it has a funny way of stopping you breathing !!

 

[studgies]

Try looking at the MCA website as they set the rules for us poor boaters.

They were deemed illegal over 2 years ago and should have been removed.

Insist they are replaced at the sellers cost.

 

[Nickcf]

Just to clarify, Halon as a gas is not poisonous when used in a typical fire extinguishing situation, it only removes oxygen from the atmosphere when it is heated as in a fire (which is what extinguishes the fire). In a real fire it would be the fire that kills not the halon. In an accidental release without combustion it is not lethal. I know several people who have been caught in unplanned halon releases and lived (equally no-one has died either!).
Obviously not something to be recommended but certainly not lethal. It is (was!) actually far safer than CO2 which is lethal in high concentration.

My understanding is that it is not legal to have any halon systems installed now.

 

[guernseyman]

When I inherited a Halon system in my computer room the understanding was then when the fire alarm went off you RAN for your life.

Ingredients

Cas: 75-63-8
RTECS #: PA5425000
Name: TRIFLUOROBROMOMETHANE (HALON 1301) (SARA 313) (CERCLA)
% Wt: ANDgt;99
Other REC Limits: NONE RECOMMENDED
OSHA PEL: 1000 PPM
ACGIH TLV: 1000 PPM; 9596
Ozone Depleting Chemical: 1

Health Hazards Data

LD50 LC50 Mixture: TLV 1000 PPM
Route Of Entry Inds - Inhalation: YES
Skin: NO
Ingestion: NO
Carcinogenicity Inds - NTP: NO
IARC: NO
OSHA: NO
Effects of Exposure: TARGET ORGANS:CNS, EYES, SKIN, LUNGS. ACUTE- EYE:CONTACT
WITH LIQUID CAN CAUSE "FREEZER" BURNS. SKIN:LIQUID CAN CAUSE FROSTBITE.
ORAL:NOT LIKELY. INHALE:MAY CAUSE SUFFOCATION. VERY HIGH CONCENTRATIONS OF
VAPOR CAN CAUSE IRREGULARITIES IN CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM, CARDIAC MUSCLES,
UNCONSCIOUSNESS, EVEN DEATH. CHRONIC- UNK
Explanation Of Carcinogenicity: NONE
Signs And Symptions Of Overexposure: FROSTBITE, EYE BURNS, HEADACHE, DIZZINESS,
CONFUSION, INCOORDINATION, UNCONSCIOUSNESS, IRREGULAR PULSE, CONVULSION,
DEATH
Medical Cond Aggravated By Exposure: INDIVIDUALS WITH PRE-EXISTING DISEASES OF
THE EYE, SKIN, RESPIRATORY TRACT, HEART, CNS MAY HAVE INCREASED
SUSCEPTIBILITY TO THE TOXICITY OF EXCESSIVE EXPOSURES.
First Aid: CALL A DOCTOR IF SYMPTOMS PERSIST. EYE:IMMEDIATELY FLUSH WITH WATER
FOR 15 MINUTES, HOLDING EYELIDS OPEN. SKIN:REMOVE CONTAMINATED CLOTHING AND
WASH EXPOSED SKIN WITH LARGE AMOUNT OF WATER. INHALED:RE MOVE TO FRESH AIR.
PROVIDE CPR/OXYGEN IF NEEDED. DO NOT GIVE EPINEPHRINE OR SIMILAR DRUGS.
ORAL:NOT LIKELY.

 

[Nickcf]

guernseyman, if you are in any area and a fire alarm goes off, the standard instructions are to get out!

The key phrase in your post is "VERY HIGH CONCENTRATIONS OF VAPOR". Halon 1301 when used in properly designed fire extinguishing systems is used (from memory) at 6% concentration. This is low enough not to cause any permanent injury. The computer rooms we had, had the halon system switched to automatic at all times even when people were inside (with full agreement from the H and S authorites). With CO2 it had to be switched off before anyone entered as the concentration needs to be much higher for CO2 to work effectively.

One of the unfortunate things in life is that most things in excess aren't good for you!

I'm not recommending anyone tries it either! Just that halon was much safer than some other extinguishants. Anyway alll academic as not in use anymore....
Don't know about the Halon replacements though?

 

[landaftaf]

akshurly - halon breaks down the flame chemically and doesnt displace the o2. in concentrations used it is considered harmless.

the by product of the chemical reaction are toxic gasses ....... one of which from memory is cyanide /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

but the main reason is - halon apparently breaks down the ozone layer and so the tree huggers have had it banned.

/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Tony7]

Hate to do this to you all, Guy next door to my berth in Spain (Brit guy, Gib boat) asked the question of his insures. All Insurance was withdrawn immediately!!!! until replaced.

 

[guernseyman]

The point is that CO2 extinguishers work by displacing the air in the room and snuffing the fire. CO2 is obviously and absolutely not toxic and can be safely inhaled while you escape the room and then get some air outside.

Halon extinguishers equally need to displace the air – they are automatic, and not directed at the fire, thus the halon and its products will be practically everywhere in the room. If you are inside the room, you will be breathing halon and its products.

My choice, and my advice to my staff, was to evacuate BEFORE the halon extinguisher was triggered.

Nickcf’s assurances about 6% concentration being safe does not cause me to change my opinion of a toxic gas and its unspecified products. It reminds me of the information that “Halon is an inert gas” which I was given when I first enquired on the subject. I’m not saying Nickcf is wrong, but you make your own judgements on these matters.

 

[John_Lana]

The point is that CO2 extinguishers work by displacing the air in the room and snuffing the fire. CO2 is obviously and absolutely not toxic and can be safely inhaled while you escape the room and then get some air outside.

CO2 cannot be safely inhaled. A couple of breaths of CO2 at the concentrations necessary to put out a fire will render you unconcious. If you carry on breathing it, then you will die, if the fire has not already burnt you!

If the vessel is classed by Lloyds or other classification society, they will not allow you to have Halon systems on board - they have to be replaced. Ditto with the MCA if the boat is on the commercial register. For any other private boat, as has been suggested, a call to the insurance company would be in order. Nobody will re-fill or service halon systems - if the insurance company wants a current certificate of inspection, then you will have to change the system for something else.
CO2 is not the only option - take a look at Pyrogen. These are great for small spaces and very effective. They were developed by the Russians for use on Soyuz.

John

 

[DOK]

Spoken with the broker and explained that I am not buying a boat with a halon extinguisher system. He has acknowledged that it should have been changed. Hopefully he will be able to explain that to the vendor.

 

[landaftaf]

I think this was directed to the wrong person ..... but I guess he will read it anyway. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[guernseyman]

It is obviously wrong to say carbon dioxide cannot be inhaled: we do it with every breath. At high concentrations it causes asphyxiation simply because you don't get enough oxygen: everyone knows that you suffocate in a small confined space. Sustained breathing at intermediate concentrations might give rise to unpleasant results such as headache, but I was talking about several breaths while exiting from a room. It ain't toxic in that sense.

 

[landaftaf]

the dividing line between a few breaths of co2 and a few breaths of co2 enough to render you u/s is very slim ....... so thinking or advocating it is remotely safe to exit a space after discharging co2 is crass ........ go wash your mouth out and do 50 press ups /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Nickcf]

I'm sorry but it is plainly irresponsible to claim that CO2 is safe to use in a closed room- it isn't! CO2 fire extinguishers state they must not be used in enclosed spaces. CO2 is odourless and colourless so you don't know when you are breathing it in.
Suggest you look at http://www.allianz-yachts.com/info/firetoptips

 

[John_Lana]

It is very dangerous to inhale CO2 as, to quote a doctor, a high concetration of CO2 may cause vasodilation leading to circulatory collapse. I was told by the MCA inspector that did our inspection last year, that three full breaths of CO2 in a high concentration, are sufficient for you to lose consciousness. I understand that when the brain detects high concentrations of CO2, it effectively closes down the reflex to breath. It is not a simple case of asphyxiation, but an actual shutting down of the body's functions.

John

 

[Frontier]

Halon was one of the best defences the fire service had, banning it was crazy. It's not like it's let off all the time, it's only when life is at risk. If I were you I would keep your halon and just add a currently approved system as well.

I know I would use halon if I had it. It will put the fire out, the other are less effective unless you have much bigger quantities.

Once you use your halon (hope you never have to) that will be that,

 

[Kaste]

As I understand it. Your insurance policy is almost certainly invalidated if you have not changed from Halon. If buying another boat ensure they are changed!