Hailing & the new rules

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Daydream believer

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As I understand it the only requirement to hail another yacht under the new rules is when one is being required to tack due to another yacht having rights (over both boats) & therefore, needs room to complete the manouvre

In a 2 boat only situation -If one is close hauled on stbd & approaches a port hand close hauled yacht ( for instance) one does not need to hail. The stbd hand yacht, if not given right of passage ( having given the port hand yacht due room to manouvre) has to make avoiding action, can just turn away & make a protest without any hail whatsoever. The stbd hand yacht then advising the defaulting yacht at the earliest opportunity of the protest. Which, in practice, may not even be right at the point of the incident if they part company very quickly.

I am also concerned about heading on " proper course" to a mark. If a lee ward boat feels that their proper course is up to windward of the lay line to, say, get out of an adverse tide it would appear that they can just luff the windward boat & with no need to hail it seems the windward boat - thinking that they are on the proper course & therefore, beyond luffing obligations- can be caught out. Proper course not necessarily being a straight line to a mark- Do not have the rules for a proper definition but I seem to recall that it is the fastest course for the yacht concerned

As I see it the rules do not call for a hail or any explanation & can lead to some rather unfair protest situations.
Whilst in practice the crews would hail, if the rules do not actually say that they should hail then a total silence from the right of way yacht cannot be used in defence by the defaulting yacht

Am I correct?
 
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dealing first of all with the requirement to hail when protesting. Rule 61 is the rule. The relavent text is

When her protest will concern an incident in the racing area that she was involved in or saw, she shall hail ‘Protest’ and conspicuously display a red flag at the first reasonable opportunity for each. She shall display the flag until she is no longer racing.
Click to expand...

So hailing protest is necessary in boat on boat protests. In your port starboard example that hail would have to be before the boats passed out of hailing distance, and probably before that. No hail at that point and no protest Comittee I've ever come across is going to find your protest valid. So in your final analysis you are not correct. Total silence from port and that protest is not going to be ruled a valid protest.

Otherwise you are absolutely correct that except in the specific case of hailing for room to tack at on obstruction (which could be a shoreline or similar as well as a row boat) hails mean nothing, though in practice are sometimes a good idea.

With specific reference to 17, in my opinion whilst your understanding of the rule seems good, you're thinking about it backwards. If you are the ww boat you must ALWAYS keep clear of a lw boat. Rule 17 does not give you an excuse for failing to react to a lw boat. It simply limits their actions if they came from clear astern. If you as ww think lw is breaking 17 you must still keep clear and protest them. Holding your course is not an option. If you do that and there is a collision you're very likely to get dsq under rule 11, regardless of whether they are found to have broken 17 or not.

In practice you'll react and say something like "proper course, the mark is over there" and they will say "this is my proper course". If you disagree you can point out why, sometimes this works, but they have no requirement to explain themselves on the water. If you think they have broken 17 then you protest.
 
Daydream believer said:
I am also concerned about heading on " proper course" to a mark. If a lee ward boat feels that their proper course is up to windward of the lay line to, say, get out of an adverse tide it would appear that they can just luff the windward boat & with no need to hail it seems the windward boat - thinking that they are on the proper course & therefore, beyond luffing obligations- can be caught out. Proper course not necessarily being a straight line to a mark- Do not have the rules for a proper definition but I seem to recall that it is the fastest course for the yacht concerned
Click to expand...

It is a very risky strategy to fail to keep clear of a leeward yacht. There's nothing to stop you shouting across that they don't have luffing rights to remind them if you think it is true, but if they come up, keep clear and protest, in which case you can go to the protest room with a no-lose strategy. If you don't keep clear and they take you to the protest room and convince the committee they had a sensible reason for sailing that course, you're out of it. Demanding another boat justifies their strategy for a proper course mid race is like asking another player to show you their hand during a card game - unlikely to be met with a co-operative response.
 
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So nothing much changed wrt proper course in the 2017 rules?
Did the OP old new rules or the ones before that?
 
The proper course that matters has always been that of the leeward boat. At least as long as I can remember.

There are certain fleets where 'overtaking boat keep clear' is still to be heard though!
 
In practice you'll react and say something like "proper course, the mark is over there" and they will say "this is my proper course". If you disagree you can point out why, sometimes this works, ..............

Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?

Say? Racers scream and shout! don`t they?:rolleyes::encouragement:
 
Quimby said:
In practice you'll react and say something like "proper course, the mark is over there" and they will say "this is my proper course". If you disagree you can point out why, sometimes this works, ..............

Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?

Say? Racers scream and shout! don`t they?:rolleyes::encouragement:
Click to expand...

The point of my question being that under the rules total silence seems to be acceptable.
Seems to me that is at odds with need to avoid a collision & requirement to give another yacht room to keep clear if one does not state its intention in such a situation
 
Daydream believer said:
The point of my question being that under the rules total silence seems to be acceptable.
Seems to me that is at odds with need to avoid a collision & requirement to give another yacht room to keep clear if one does not state its intention in such a situation
Click to expand...

The rules cover a wide variety of boats, hailing is not always very effective, so I can see the point of not relying on it.
Nothing prevents anyone hailing when it helps.
 
lw395 said:
The rules cover a wide variety of boats, hailing is not always very effective, so I can see the point of not relying on it.
Nothing prevents anyone hailing when it helps.
Click to expand...

A hail can be denied, it could be misheard or genuinely not heard. What I assume is the rules now say is it's the incident itself that's the issue. B flag still required at a guess?
 
Daydream believer said:
The point of my question being that under the rules total silence seems to be acceptable.
Seems to me that is at odds with need to avoid a collision & requirement to give another yacht room to keep clear if one does not state its intention in such a situation
Click to expand...

Been like that for a while, other than hailing for room to tack at an obstruction. Nothing at all to stop you hailing another boat but no requirement. Good job. It would be pretty awkward if a right of way boat could be protested for not hailing.

And the keep clear but is not required to anticipate any action of the right of way boat. Again, it would be much more complex if they were required to act on the stated intentions of another boat. Lots of room for ambiguity in the protest room.
 
Daydream...

The confusion about the new rules or the ones before is simply that the new 2017-2020 rules have made no change in this regard. In the 2013-2016 rules the same situation was there - that the only hail that has any meaning in the rules before an incident is the hail for room to tack. And in fact for many previous editions of the rules. This is nothing new, and has been the case for as long as I've been racing at least.
The requirement to hail "Protest" if you wish to protest is also there, and has been for as long as I've been racing.

The rules state that you must give the give way boat room to keep clear when you alter course. The give way boat is ONLY obligated to react to the movement of your boat, and not to all of the yelling you might be doing.
Sure, that doesn't mean I don't indulge in a bit of "keep up!" hails on the start line, but they don't mean anything under the rules and I don't bother mentioning them in any protest. I only mention the helm movements and timings. They're more of a warning to the other boat that you think they are not keeping clear as they should, and if they don't do something about it the next word out of my mouth might be "protest".
 
Daydream believer said:
The point of my question being that under the rules total silence seems to be acceptable.
Seems to me that is at odds with need to avoid a collision & requirement to give another yacht room to keep clear if one does not state its intention in such a situation
Click to expand...

My guess is that the logic runs something like " the rules are clear and you shouldnt need shouting at to follow them. If you dont follow the rules and someone wishes to protest you, they are obliged to give you warning but if they dont wish to protest you then they dont need to do anything. As for room to tack, sure you have to give that room but it cannot always be obvious when the other boat needs you to do something. So they have to tell you."

In short you only have to hail when either the timing of something is not obvious or when an action is optional. When the rules are quite clear you are expected to follow them without need to be told to do so.
 
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"flaming" is correct that only two hails are mandatory under the rules ("protest" and "room to tack"), but other hails may be seen as efforts to avoid contact under rule 14.
 
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