CharlesSwallow
Well-Known Member
Foul! REF!!!
Was that called for?
Quite close to being a "Sending Off" offence, I'd have thought?
Chas
Was that called for?
Quite close to being a "Sending Off" offence, I'd have thought?
Chas
Greek Cruising Tax
- Thread starter sunshinesailing
- Start date
CharlesSwallow
Well-Known Member
Well Frank
I suppose that a few less private boats taking up space in Greek harbours can be nothing but good news for you eh? More space to get your customers in? Your company IS one of the better behaved though, I have to say.
Chas
I suppose that a few less private boats taking up space in Greek harbours can be nothing but good news for you eh? More space to get your customers in? Your company IS one of the better behaved though, I have to say.
Chas
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Glyka
Well-Known Member
1. Wrong! We have the largest commercial fleet in the world AND feta!
2. Do not overestimate the financial impact of your visit to Greece. The money spent by the average yacht is less than that spent by the average backpacker whereas the resources used are many times as many. Thus, financially speaking, I prefer to have 10, 50, 100, 1000 or even 5000(!) less foreign-flagged yachts and keep the beaches quiter for the 15.000.000 land-based visitors.
As far as marinas are concerned, they are already packed with Greek-owned boats (at least in the Aegean part, I don't know about the Ionian).
(edit) Imagine if I visited Britain with my car and refused to pay road-tolls saying that only Brits should pay... (don't forget that London Underground tickets are a ripoff)
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ccscott49
Well-Known Member
Yes it was called for IMO!
Are you the moderator? No, then mind your own damn business or report me to the moderator, I couldnt care less what you do.
ccscott49
Well-Known Member
The average yacht spends less than a backpacker?? Does that include mooring fees, etc.?
If this tax goes ahead, you will definitely have a lot less motor boats and a few big yachts.
But I still question whether this "tax" is EU wide legal.
Forgetting road tolls, we only have one road in UK that is tolled, we are not talking about road tolls here. You do not have to pay road tax in the UK either on your foreign car.
In fact I do believe you dont have to pay any tax for visiting the UK, not even cruising tax!
You will not be charged tax for your bringing your boat to UK. or any other country in the EU that I know of. Which is what we are talking about.
Of course you can do whatever you like, but it has to be EU legal, as you are part of the EU, arent you?.
Are London underground tickets a rip off? I dunno.
What resources are used by yachts, that are not paid for by the yachts? Again I dunno, just want clarification.
I also didnt know yachts cluttered up the beaches, I try to keep mine well off the beach.
In the Ionian, the marinas are definitely not packed with anybody, apart from July-August.
I really wanted to visit the Ionian and the rest of Greece evetually, but I'm afraid this "tax" has definitely frightened me off. I just cannot afford it, cheaper to stay in Barcelona.
sunshinesailing
Active Member
Grrek Cruising tax
In creating this tax the Greek government will have measured the impact very carefully. The pressure on the government to generate revenue where ever possible is immense and unprecedented. Any existing law will be used and the tax is likely to be imposed very soon.
The affects are as follows.
1. The vast majority are unaffected by this tax.
2. There will be those that leave, don't come or come and stay less than 40 days. These are a very small number when compared to the total.
3. The charter companies, marinas, tavernas, chandleries, etc will be unaffected by this. They will still be full and July and August will still be hectic.
4. There will be those that stay and come regardless of the tax.
Insults hurled at the government fall on deaf ears.
During these difficult financial times governments around the world are working outside existing trade and tax agreements as they do not fit the current situation.
Through this forum and thread we have become aware of our increasing tax liability here in Greece and we can make informed decisions about where we cruise.
In creating this tax the Greek government will have measured the impact very carefully. The pressure on the government to generate revenue where ever possible is immense and unprecedented. Any existing law will be used and the tax is likely to be imposed very soon.
The affects are as follows.
1. The vast majority are unaffected by this tax.
2. There will be those that leave, don't come or come and stay less than 40 days. These are a very small number when compared to the total.
3. The charter companies, marinas, tavernas, chandleries, etc will be unaffected by this. They will still be full and July and August will still be hectic.
4. There will be those that stay and come regardless of the tax.
Insults hurled at the government fall on deaf ears.
During these difficult financial times governments around the world are working outside existing trade and tax agreements as they do not fit the current situation.
Through this forum and thread we have become aware of our increasing tax liability here in Greece and we can make informed decisions about where we cruise.
PLEIAS
Well-Known Member
Very well put sunshinesailing.As for the part about my customers i'm an indepentend accountant so nothing to do with marinas or ports or chandler industry but when it comes to you paying the tax you'll fall in my jaws and i can chew you and spit the bones out.If you don't like what's happenning as was allready stated vote with your keel and go elsewhere.I for one allready apologised if i have offended other people's politics and i never said that we reserve the right of critisising our country.On the contrary i asked everybody to protest formally.But it seems that the protesters in this thread first of all don't even bother to read the whole thread they just pick a sentence and start whine.As i've said allready in the original thread a couple of months back i'll keep you posted with anything new.TILL THEN BYE_BYE AND THANKS FOR THE FISH.
Glyka
Well-Known Member
Hi ccsott,
I will try to be more specific (despite my very limited vocabulary).
Yes, the average backpacker will pay 50-100 Euros each and every night for a bed, whereas the average yacht will pay for mooring less and only a few times if any.
The average backpacker will have most if not all of his/her meals and drinks in a cafe, taverna or bar whereas the average yacht(man) won't (and shouldn't).
Speaking for myself, my wife and I spend less than 2.000 euros in our 4-week holiday on boat whereas if we were land-based this would be the average amount for a 7-10 day stay.
Yes, the road toll example was not a very successful one
Resources (in the broad sense) of a touristic place are among others, the beaches and the water. A boat occupies a lot more of both than a normal visitor. Believe me, a small bay with 2-3 anchored yachts in it is less appealing.
Do not forget the fact that if someone wants to stay in the nude he/she is strongly discouraged by the presence of a yacht nearby.
Some people do use the toilet while in anchor or in a port.
All this of course regardless of flag, but you have to admit that the less the yachts the better for the normal(!) visitor.
Please do not judge yachts(men) with your behaviour in mind, we are talking about average.
On the tax itself, 40 days are plenty of time for a visiting boat. Is the tax legal? Are alcohol and tobacco taxes legal?
And Chas, those who have more than enough should pay more for those who don't. That is civilization.
I will try to be more specific (despite my very limited vocabulary).
Yes, the average backpacker will pay 50-100 Euros each and every night for a bed, whereas the average yacht will pay for mooring less and only a few times if any.
The average backpacker will have most if not all of his/her meals and drinks in a cafe, taverna or bar whereas the average yacht(man) won't (and shouldn't).
Speaking for myself, my wife and I spend less than 2.000 euros in our 4-week holiday on boat whereas if we were land-based this would be the average amount for a 7-10 day stay.
Yes, the road toll example was not a very successful one
Resources (in the broad sense) of a touristic place are among others, the beaches and the water. A boat occupies a lot more of both than a normal visitor. Believe me, a small bay with 2-3 anchored yachts in it is less appealing.
Do not forget the fact that if someone wants to stay in the nude he/she is strongly discouraged by the presence of a yacht nearby.
Some people do use the toilet while in anchor or in a port.
All this of course regardless of flag, but you have to admit that the less the yachts the better for the normal(!) visitor.
Please do not judge yachts(men) with your behaviour in mind, we are talking about average.
On the tax itself, 40 days are plenty of time for a visiting boat. Is the tax legal? Are alcohol and tobacco taxes legal?
And Chas, those who have more than enough should pay more for those who don't. That is civilization.
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1bobt
N/A
Thanks chas
He`s just a spoilt child who has had his own way. Big bad oil man, Who has forgoten that I run a wirelining co offshore for twenty years.
I got to the top he is still on the bottom.
cheers bobt
MVDestiny
Member
Will owners of 15M motor/sailors risk being classified as Motor (stinkpots as somebody put it) or are they confident that they are in the sailing catagory?
duncan99210
Well-Known Member
Just a thought...
The Spanish authorities have had a tax in place for years which is levied on boats where the owners remain in their territory for more than 183 days a year (6 months to save doing the maths). This has been in place since Spain joined the EU and is a one off tax like VAT. There are various ways round the problem, including declaring youself resident in Spain for tax purposes, but the bottom line is that if you're here for more than 6 months in any one calander year, you're liable for the tax.
For years, this tax has not been vigourously imposed by the tax authorities but it is clear that in the current financial situation they are seeking to increase the pressure on liveaboards to pay the tax. There are penalties for late payment but there seems to be a degree of negotiation as to how big the tax bill is when you're interviewed by the customs officers, as the bill is levied as 12% of the value of the boat.
Now, having said all of that, there are 2 points to bear in mind.
First, there's only 2 certainties in life:death and taxes. There's no point in complaining about a nation's tax policies, especially if you aren't a citizen; you've got two options don't go there or pay the tax.
Second, the current economic climate is such that most countries are going to be looking at ways to raise revenue which are popular with most people (ie does'nt affect them) whilst hitting those that are preceived as having deep pockets. Unfortunately, those of us lucky enough to be living on board our own boats appear to the majority to have deep pockets (I know its not true, especially me) and we're therefore legitimate targets. Therefore, we must keep up to date with the proposed taxes being imposed by desparate goverments and avoid them where possible.
That's the value of threads like this one rather than somewhere to complain about the unfairness of it all - that being said, I do think that the Greeks are being a little short sighted as the law as currently written has enough holes in it to ensure that it misses the original purpose of hitting the owners of off shore registered boats who often avoid paying any Greek taxes all.
The Spanish authorities have had a tax in place for years which is levied on boats where the owners remain in their territory for more than 183 days a year (6 months to save doing the maths). This has been in place since Spain joined the EU and is a one off tax like VAT. There are various ways round the problem, including declaring youself resident in Spain for tax purposes, but the bottom line is that if you're here for more than 6 months in any one calander year, you're liable for the tax.
For years, this tax has not been vigourously imposed by the tax authorities but it is clear that in the current financial situation they are seeking to increase the pressure on liveaboards to pay the tax. There are penalties for late payment but there seems to be a degree of negotiation as to how big the tax bill is when you're interviewed by the customs officers, as the bill is levied as 12% of the value of the boat.
Now, having said all of that, there are 2 points to bear in mind.
First, there's only 2 certainties in life:death and taxes. There's no point in complaining about a nation's tax policies, especially if you aren't a citizen; you've got two options don't go there or pay the tax.
Second, the current economic climate is such that most countries are going to be looking at ways to raise revenue which are popular with most people (ie does'nt affect them) whilst hitting those that are preceived as having deep pockets. Unfortunately, those of us lucky enough to be living on board our own boats appear to the majority to have deep pockets (I know its not true, especially me) and we're therefore legitimate targets. Therefore, we must keep up to date with the proposed taxes being imposed by desparate goverments and avoid them where possible.
That's the value of threads like this one rather than somewhere to complain about the unfairness of it all - that being said, I do think that the Greeks are being a little short sighted as the law as currently written has enough holes in it to ensure that it misses the original purpose of hitting the owners of off shore registered boats who often avoid paying any Greek taxes all.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Just a point on legality. It is mis-named as a "cruising tax" - it is a tax on boats in Greece and they have reasons for defining "in Greece" as more than 40 days. The important issue with regard to EU legality is that it applies to all boats including Greek, therefore it is not a tax on visitors. Those with long(er) memories will know that they used to have a tax on visitors which was declared illegal on EU boats, but still exists for non EU visitors.
Greece is not alone in the EU in having (or proposing) a tax on boats. They exist in France Portugal and Spain (and probably other states) and in some cases they apply to all boats, but in others as currently in Spain visitors and boats owned by non-residents are (currently) exempt. And of course Greece's two near neighbours Croatia and Turkey both levy significant taxes on visiting boats.
Non-Greek owners of boats based in Greece like me do make a substantial contribution to the Greek economy - way above the immediate living spend. In the last 3 years I have spent an average of 6000 euros a year on berthing, cranage, maintenance and repair work. Not many land based visitors spend anything like this - most of them are on 2 weeks for £399 packages - but do make a significant contribution to keeping the breweries in business (although probably no more on average than visiting Yotties).
As already noted, taxes are never "fair" - there are always some who feel they are being discriminated against. I object to paying twice as much road tax on my fun car which does 3000 miles a year than my wife's work car that does 3 times that - but I have a choice - pay up or get rid of the car.
As we have found in the UK a sudden increase in tax on large power boats (removal of cheap fuel) has had very little impact on ownership of such boats. So, although there may be some individuals that make a negative decision (such as not going to Greece) because of this tax, the overall effect is likely to be small - simply because the number of boats affected is small.
Greece is not alone in the EU in having (or proposing) a tax on boats. They exist in France Portugal and Spain (and probably other states) and in some cases they apply to all boats, but in others as currently in Spain visitors and boats owned by non-residents are (currently) exempt. And of course Greece's two near neighbours Croatia and Turkey both levy significant taxes on visiting boats.
Non-Greek owners of boats based in Greece like me do make a substantial contribution to the Greek economy - way above the immediate living spend. In the last 3 years I have spent an average of 6000 euros a year on berthing, cranage, maintenance and repair work. Not many land based visitors spend anything like this - most of them are on 2 weeks for £399 packages - but do make a significant contribution to keeping the breweries in business (although probably no more on average than visiting Yotties).
As already noted, taxes are never "fair" - there are always some who feel they are being discriminated against. I object to paying twice as much road tax on my fun car which does 3000 miles a year than my wife's work car that does 3 times that - but I have a choice - pay up or get rid of the car.
As we have found in the UK a sudden increase in tax on large power boats (removal of cheap fuel) has had very little impact on ownership of such boats. So, although there may be some individuals that make a negative decision (such as not going to Greece) because of this tax, the overall effect is likely to be small - simply because the number of boats affected is small.
saltwater_gypsy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 13 Jan 2008
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- Now back in Scotland . Boat for sale
It is all very reminiscent of the boat tax that was applied in Sardinia on boats over 14m.
It cost 5M € to collect 1.5M€ in tax and drove many large boats across to Corsica.
A financial disaster.Does that tax still apply in Sardinia??
It cost 5M € to collect 1.5M€ in tax and drove many large boats across to Corsica.
A financial disaster.Does that tax still apply in Sardinia??
AndersG
Well-Known Member
Most yachts spend very little on moorings fees. With all the free anchorages and the usually free town quays there is really no reason to spend much money on mooring.
Marsupial
Well-Known Member
No, it was abandoned this year because (amongst other reasons) marina people were having difficulty explaining the reason for the tax to yacht owners, who then went somewhere else.
Bill Gates among them AFAIK.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Not sure how you come to that conclusion. It may well be true when cruising in the summer, but most people who keep their boats in Greece pay for laying up in the winter in facilities that are owned by Greek people. Indeed one of the attractions of Greece is the availability of good laying up facilities and repairs/maintenance which all contribute significantly to the local economy.
binch
Well-Known Member
Boat taxes in Greece
Most Med countries have a history of taxing visiting boats, and provided the tax is reasonable and fairly imposed, few will object.
I first cruised Greek waters in 1953, when there were no taxes on visiting boats, the Greek people being noted for xenofilia.
My first memory of a tax in Greece was just after the infanous colonels were chucked out and the result was a mass exodus for Turkey, largely because the proposed tax was excessive. It was this move that started off the yachting boom in Turkey. When we wintered in Bodrum in 1975, there were only four boats there: in 1977, there were twelve.
The exodus from Greece was a major factor in the late completion of Gouvia marina. We paid the tax and had a fine winter in the uncompleted Gouvia, running an electric cable across to Vassili and Victor's house close by. (Repeat the Greeks people are not xenophobic. That is why I want to go back again if my health improves. Even the health service in Greece is better than many assume.
In 1979 (I think) France taxed all foreign yachts very severely and the result was a mass exodus to Italy and Spain that left French marinas almost empty. We had paid French VAT on our yacht so we wintered in a super berth in Antibes for less than £300, so were financially ahead. . Sadly, never again such a deal.
Details of this proposed tax are unclear, but if it is over-bearing and/or unfair it will be changed. There are many Greek businesses serving the yachting community and they will start to sing about it soon if their incomes are threatened, because many of these are in the islands which are more dependent on yachting visitors than the metroopolitan area.
Do not knock the Greeks. Their politics are complex and Athens-oriented. Powerful people do not live on islands, but they pay attention in the end.
There is a Greek saying TI THA KANATE
Cheer up everyone
Most Med countries have a history of taxing visiting boats, and provided the tax is reasonable and fairly imposed, few will object.
I first cruised Greek waters in 1953, when there were no taxes on visiting boats, the Greek people being noted for xenofilia.
My first memory of a tax in Greece was just after the infanous colonels were chucked out and the result was a mass exodus for Turkey, largely because the proposed tax was excessive. It was this move that started off the yachting boom in Turkey. When we wintered in Bodrum in 1975, there were only four boats there: in 1977, there were twelve.
The exodus from Greece was a major factor in the late completion of Gouvia marina. We paid the tax and had a fine winter in the uncompleted Gouvia, running an electric cable across to Vassili and Victor's house close by. (Repeat the Greeks people are not xenophobic. That is why I want to go back again if my health improves. Even the health service in Greece is better than many assume.
In 1979 (I think) France taxed all foreign yachts very severely and the result was a mass exodus to Italy and Spain that left French marinas almost empty. We had paid French VAT on our yacht so we wintered in a super berth in Antibes for less than £300, so were financially ahead. . Sadly, never again such a deal.
Details of this proposed tax are unclear, but if it is over-bearing and/or unfair it will be changed. There are many Greek businesses serving the yachting community and they will start to sing about it soon if their incomes are threatened, because many of these are in the islands which are more dependent on yachting visitors than the metroopolitan area.
Do not knock the Greeks. Their politics are complex and Athens-oriented. Powerful people do not live on islands, but they pay attention in the end.
There is a Greek saying TI THA KANATE
Cheer up everyone
1bobt
N/A
Hi
When you look at the large marina`s around Arhens and see the enormous amount of Greek owned Super yachts of all types, with British and American flags . You can them understand what and who this Tax is aimed at . My guess is that it will miss the intended target !
However it also has been designed not to harm the Greek charter industry, as most charter sailing yachts are under the 15m target size. as are most livaboard /cruisers ,I myself was considering a large Bavaria to live on, that will have to be put on hold . If this new Tax comes about ,I bet there will be boat manufactors building 14.9s
I am sorry for the ones that get caught out, by having a larger boat of whatever age, but thats life, either pay up, or do not come here.
With your larger size boat it easier to fit a black holding tank and move to Turkey, you will still be able to sail in Greek waters for 40 days a year
cheers bobt
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AndersG
Well-Known Member
With mooring fees I meant marina fees or fees to tie up to a town quay.
You are of course correct that most people cruise during the summer and put their boat on the hard for the winter.
I've been in the Ionian for the last 1,5 years and I have in total paid about 20 Euros for mooring.
CharlesSwallow
Well-Known Member
But we wouldn't discriminate between two Greeks in Britain...
by taxing one with a boat kept in our country and leaving another un-taxed. Why not ACTUALLY impose a "Tourist Tax"? I'll tell you why - Thomson Tui would be up in arms about it and your corrupt politicians would soon bend to the wind of reality.
We support your local economy very much - ask a chandler or ask the 7 Brothers in Aegina. In the Ionian it is far more obvious where whole towns become de-populated once the season is over.
You will be the loosers out of this - REMEMBER THAT I TOLD YOU THAT
Chas
by taxing one with a boat kept in our country and leaving another un-taxed. Why not ACTUALLY impose a "Tourist Tax"? I'll tell you why - Thomson Tui would be up in arms about it and your corrupt politicians would soon bend to the wind of reality.
We support your local economy very much - ask a chandler or ask the 7 Brothers in Aegina. In the Ionian it is far more obvious where whole towns become de-populated once the season is over.
You will be the loosers out of this - REMEMBER THAT I TOLD YOU THAT
Chas