Greek Cruising Tax

Grrek Cruising tax

Hi Dimitris.
I appreciate your helping with an understanding of this tax. It is important for all yachtsmen and yachtswomen be they live aboards, seasonal cruisers, domestic or foreign flagged, private or commercial to understand their tax liabilities and what the host country's regulations are with regard to the cost of cruising.
Don't let the skeptics in this forum dissuade from keeping the rest of us accurately informed when information on this tax becomes available. Keep up the good work as we will all benefit from your participation on this issue.
 
I think you havn't grasped what I was saying Bob

1bobt said:
Chas
I do not belive that we are talking about state robbery.IMO its the Greek Gov trying to collect a tax from a part of their community that so far has evaded paying it.
Is you look at the size of boat, that they are targeting it should not affect the general charter yacht, or liveaboard people .Ok there are a few with yachts over 15 meters, but the majority are smaller .

I think its the superyacht and gin palaces that there want to include into their tax regime.

Cheers bobt
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I object to ANY tax which is just a case of saying "You seem to have a lot therefore WE want some of it" There is also no justification other than jealousy for the imposition of taxes on foreign nationals. They get little or nothing for it and already conribute 19% of everything they spend in greece which in itself brings a huge income to that country. "Squeezing the rich until the pips squeak" is OLD LABOUR and nothing to do with equity.

Chas
 
Greek cruising tax

To answer a few questions that have been raised.
1. The 40 days is cumulative.
2. The law applies to all boats sail and power private and commercial regardless of flag.
3. The LOA is taken from the ship registration.
4. If your sail boat is 15 meters long then the tax is calculated thus; 200 euros per meter for every meter for a calendar yearly total of 3000 euros. (The first 15 meters are not free).
5. TAI is length overall.
6. If you want to read the English version first download the Greek version from the noonsite link and then google translate to the English version. While the translation is not exact it gives you the meaning of the law.
7. Most important is that the law was passed on August 7 2009. Dimitris in this thread says the law is frozen which should mean it is not being enforced at this time.

If I am wrong in any of the above Dimitris will correct me
 
sunshinesailing said:
To answer a few questions that have been raised.
1. The 40 days is cumulative.
2. The law applies to all boats sail and power private and commercial regardless of flag.
3. The LOA is taken from the ship registration.
4. If your sail boat is 15 meters long then the tax is calculated thus; 200 euros per meter for every meter for a calendar yearly total of 3000 euros. (The first 15 meters are not free).
5. TAI is length overall.
6. If you want to read the English version first download the Greek version from the noonsite link and then google translate to the English version. While the translation is not exact it gives you the meaning of the law.
7. Most important is that the law was passed on August 7 2009. Dimitris in this thread says the law is frozen which should mean it is not being enforced at this time.

If I am wrong in any of the above Dimitris will correct me
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That seems fine by me it will only hit the rich or the owners of Large MABs:D
That will stop the Bavarian building those large cr-p boats.
 
PLEIAS said:
Hi sorry for not replying sooner but i was away.Now, the goverment will revise the status of so called profesional boats as the these are tax-exempt according to the review of the original law(see my answer above), and this is not an annual tax but a special tax contribution meaning for now at least.My understanding is that boats or yachts under the above mentioned dimentions won't pay anything at all - that was only in the original law that is for the present time reformed and frozen.As soon as i'll find out more i'll post ASAP. The fact is that somehow i also find it satisfactory that these yachts will finally be paying more and also the re examining of the so called profesional licenses of many yachts in Greece.If somebody is a profesional and really charters ok but i've had it with them that are just using charters as an excuse for their gin palaces not paying a cent.Also vessels that have to stay for repairs either oland or sea should seek a special permit by the port Police authorities as they are also Tax exempt.Greetings to you all.
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Thank you for the informative posts you are supplying the forum with, it's most appreciated by all I should say.

Just to clarify a point, the ruling is saying - .

4. Excise tax is levied in sailboats
yachts exceeding 15 meters and calculated
TAI depending on the length of the ship as follows:
a) for the first 20 meters, two hundred (200) per
measure.

So this interpretation below is saying a 15m SY is liable for payment but surely not because it is not "exceeding 15m" ?

"If your sail boat is 15 meters long then the tax is calculated thus; 200 euros per meter for every meter for a calendar yearly total of 3000 euros. (The first 15 meters are not free)." ?

To change the subject slightly, did I not read sometime ago that this legislation is also going to tax on engine(s) size (hp/Kw) as well as the length of boats ?

_____________________________________________________________________
 
sunshinesailing said:
To answer a few questions that have been raised.
1. The 40 days is cumulative.
2. The law applies to all boats sail and power private and commercial regardless of flag.
3. The LOA is taken from the ship registration.
4. If your sail boat is 15 meters long then the tax is calculated thus; 200 euros per meter for every meter for a calendar yearly total of 3000 euros. (The first 15 meters are not free).
5. TAI is length overall.
6. If you want to read the English version first download the Greek version from the noonsite link and then google translate to the English version. While the translation is not exact it gives you the meaning of the law.
7. Most important is that the law was passed on August 7 2009. Dimitris in this thread says the law is frozen which should mean it is not being enforced at this time.

If I am wrong in any of the above Dimitris will correct me
Click to expand...

Now to clarify matters a bit.
PART ONE:
What you mention above is Law (N)3790/2009 as it was initially issued.This has been allready altered (I think sometime in October) and No 2 is changed so it only applies on private vessels only.Nevertheless they will review the matter of professional (charter) licenses meaning they will attempt to find out a way to tell who's really a charter and who's not.In the same time they froze it as to when that tax was due initially for November 15th and then untill further notice...Now my impression is that if they set a date they'll try to collect 2009 tax as well allthough i don't see how as many boats will be gone allready and that means that tax will be paid 2x (2009 and 2010).Again i state this is hearsay and remains to be seen.So no tax from this is due up till now and unill futher notice.

PART TWO:
In the above mentioned LAW 3790/2009 it was stated that a special contributing tax was due for the same amount of money and terms as above mentioned.Contribution - meaning once only.NOW that was also frozen up untill December when LAW 3808/2009 was issued and that is due April 30th.(An additional fine of 10% monthly will be due for those who don't pay by that date).Again this only is for private vessels.Again that doesn't apply to any vessels that need repairs or service and exceed the 40 day period be it on land or sea as long as they're issued the special permit by the port authorities or port police.

PART THREE:
I would advise everybody to formally protest to their yachting assosiations or consulates regardless of where they are against this tax imposed on vessels of another flag as it should be imposed on greek flag only if at all.I'M SAYING THIS AS SPAIN IS ALLREADY VOTING FOR SOMETHING SIMILAR.WHO KNOWS WHO ' LL COME NEXT?

I'm not saying that people should not pay.In our national Constitution it is stated clearly that each should contribute taxwise accordingly.And i dont have a yacht above those dimentions so i'm not affected by that.But let's all protest or find a way -see above about unjust vehicle taxes- to make them see our point.
 
I apologise if by anything i've written i have offended another country's fiscal politics.My view is and i'm trying to keep it that i'm generally allowed by my own mentallity and upbringing to critisize only what's mine and that is my country and my goverment.That's all and thank you for putting up with what's mine.
 
CharlesSwallow said:
I object to ANY tax which is just a case of saying "You seem to have a lot therefore WE want some of it" There is also no justification other than jealousy for the imposition of taxes on foreign nationals. They get little or nothing for it and already conribute 19% of everything they spend in greece which in itself brings a huge income to that country. "Squeezing the rich until the pips squeak" is OLD LABOUR and nothing to do with equity.

Chas
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You can always vote with your keel and go somewhere else.

There appears to be an impression that taxes should be "fair" - in fact attempts to produce fair taxes always fail - the one thing about any tax is that it should be easy to collect. Value-added taxes are just that.

To correct Pliaedes impression. the current pecking order for European States who are insolvent is something like this (most insolvent on top).

Iceland
Latvia/Lithuania
Romania
Greece
Eire
Italy
UK
Spain

Greece and Italy have the added burden of formerly "dirtily" floating their currencies down and now having that door shut firmly in their faces and, with tax evasion being national sports in both countries, are faced with stringently austere discipline to which their populations are totally unused.

All the above countries will be seeking any means by which they can increase their tax-take and/or reduce their public wages bill. Only Eire has grasped the nettle and reduced state-employees pay.
 
In my line of work i meet a lot of people and since i'm fluent in several languages from many nations.I for one was against us joining the EURO especially as we would loose the option of devaluing our then currency thus providing more compatible prices for what we have to offer.Next came the EURO and all of a sudden ten years after everything is 300% more expencive but i make almost the same money (ok 20% more).Globalization or stupidity we raised the prices to match the "european" but we still make less money by 30%.Numbers? No.Lots of my foreign customers are tax evading both my country and their own using are slack systems.Then came the olympic Games and everything was OK as "we showed Them" that we could get our act together and organise it all.THEN CAME THE BILL.
Then came the bribes (SIEMENS) and we "discovered" that our polititians are dirty.I don't know where it all leads but eventually i have to pay because some international bank decided to play with stocks and some other country decided to play with other people's money or jobs or houses.Is there really a way out? Owners of my neighbouring boat -liveaboards- have to spent more time in their country of origin or they would loose their tax benefits and their home which they leased out so that they can support their living aboard.It's a mess - a global mess.All i can do is try to help where i can hope that you'll try too.That's all for now folks GOODNITE AND GOOD LUCK.Over and out.
P.S. PLEIAS is one of the Pleiades.Supposedly the one that was condemned to remain unseen cause she had fallen in love with a mortal.The mortal being me i can assure you that i'm in love with my goddess of a boat allthough she's turned 30 and she comes from Sussex.
 
This whole thing seems very similar to the recent situation in Sardinia. For the best part of two years, boats just avoided going there and eventually the government backed down. Seems unfortunate that all of those tavernas and other local businesses that depend on the trade are going to loose out.
For me, we may be power, stinkpot we are not, economy we are - Greece at best will become a stop off on our way east.
 
Greek cruising tax

Hi Pleias
Dimitris please hang in there with this thread as your knowledge and ability to help cruisers understand this tax and their liability is invaluable. I will keep all my comments about bad politics and stupid financial decisions of politicians and financial institutions and individuals to myself. I am in Greece with my boat and I am having a wonderful time and I want to stay. To make the decision to stay depends, in part, on the cost.
Can you help me with the following by confirming if you consider my understanding of the tax and law to be correct or incorrect.
1. I was in Greece for more than 40 days in 2009 so I already have that tax liability should the law be unfrozen while I am still in Greece.
2. On February 10 2010, the 41st day of 2010 I will then have the tax liability for the 2010 calendar year.
3. If the law is unfrozen after February 10 this year while I am still in Greece then I will have 2 years tax due and payable.

Am I correct?

Again Dimitris many thanks for your help.
 
Yes to all of the above.As long as they don't reform the law in any other way and they just issue an order stating the date the debt is to be collected then yes they can collect also for 2009 as every law is legally active upon on the date of it being published in the Goverment's Newspaper(August 2009) unless stated otherwise.This Newspaper is a Parliament newspaper where every legislature work that was voted by the majority of the parliament and approved by the President of the Democracy is published for all to know.So nobody can acll upon ignorance of the law.The part "POL"(see my first post on the top of the page) followed by a number is an extra explanatory legislation that can be issued by the appropriate ministry to clear parts of the original articles that contradict older legislatures or interprete parts of the law that are not clear.Now no tax is yet due exept the special contribution tax due end of April.That means that a sailing boat that is 15.01 mtrs will pay special contribution 3000(15mtrs)+200 for the additional 1cm total 3200 euros when a 15 mtrs boat doesn't pay anything.Crazy i know.Now the same boat can be made to pay the same amount of money 3200 times two once for 2009 and once for 2010.The other boat of just 15 mtrs will only pay 15 euros time two ,total 30 euros.Again this is speculation.
 
Given the vague wording we have at hand it is difficult to know what the authors of the law actually mean.

If the translation is anything to go by there is confusion between “measure” and “meter”, unless of course they are both the same which I don’t think is clear.

For a sailing boat for example:
First 20m 200 euro per measure
Next five measures <sic> (21 to 25m) 400 euro per meter
Over 26m 600 euro per meter

Noonsite seems to have read this as boats up to 20m pay 200 euro, the next 5 meters is an additional 400 euro, and from then on it is 600 euro per meter.

There are at least 3 different interpretations of this for say a boat of 28m LOA:
(1)
20m x 200 = 4000
5m x 400 = 2000
3m x 600 = 1800
Total 7800 euro

(2)
First 20m = 200
Next 5m = 400
3m x 600 = 1800
Total 2400 euro

(3)
The boat is over 25 meters and will be charged 600 euro
(a boat of 22m would cost 400 euro, and a boat of 18m would cost 200 euro)

I will be an optimist here and opt for the latter to be correct.

We are only guessing here so I think it is best to follow the advice of Pleias and wait and see what happens.
 
I do know one thing for sure, if it goes ahead, I will not be coming to Greece next year, simple as that. Too bloody expensive.
 
Don't try to dignify it.

PLEIAS said:
The above mentioned 'special contribution tax' is applied to all private vessels under any flag.
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Precisely

STATE ROBBERY!!

Your country needs us. We DON'T need YOUR COUNTRY. We can push off to Turkey just whenever we want. You have little or no other source of income than the visitors to your couintry. Kindly, REMEMBER THAT!!

Furthermore, if you want to impose tax on your citizens; FINE but don't expect the rest of us to bail you out of a history of disasterous financial management (not to mention the lies you told the EU to gain membership!)

Chas
 
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Just for clarification

PLEIAS said:
I apologise if by anything i've written i have offended another country's fiscal politics.
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I know how the Greeks dislike anything of their country's being criticised whether it's fundamently right or wrong (The "I will support my mother Drunk or Sober" position).

{Fell foul of that in Katakolon, one night!}

However, please don't think that we Brits operate that way. If something stinks in our country, we are always the first to admit it and even support anyone else who says so.

Chas
 
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