Greece 2014

[Caladh]

Well after some years of going through a sort of hell am I the only one who
thinks that the Greeks are slipping back in to their old ways ? Having always
received receipts for just about everything over the past few years there have
been many occasions this season where receipts have not been forthcoming.
At some of the more well known restaurants in the N and S Ionian we have had bills
written on the tablecloth or scraps of paper and on one particular occasion recently a fuel attendant
adamantly refused to give a receipt for a considerable amount of fuel. Can I also say that on no
occasion do I feel I've been ripped off at all. I just get the impression that locals feel that they've
suffered enough !

 

[Artic Warrior]

Receipt :highly_amused:

i was quoted for my winter marina fee,,,and he gave me a discount for cash, which is ok,,,,,
but then I saw him write out another invoice at half the price which he retained for him self and I said I would prefer to pay for that one,
and all he said was ha ha but this one is for the tax man,,,,

 

[sailaboutvic]

We not spend much time in Greece this year , only about three months in all so far , but yes your right less and less receipt
, I offen through about saying , I not going to pay as there no receipt , but hey what's the point .
Greece is Greece and not the EU or any one else is every going to change it .

 

[Tony Cross]

It's little different to the UK where the phrase "and how much for cash?" means much the same thing. In Greece of course it's a thousand times easier to get away with hiding VAT payments than it is in the UK. That's why you see so much of it here. The phrase "do you want a receipt?" actually means "do you want to pay the VAT?" and how many people answer that with a "yes please"? And we're all guilty of tax evasion if we say "no thanks".

By law in Greece the customer is not obliged to pay if no receipt is issued. Of course knowing that and enforcing it are two different things........

 

[tinkicker0]

I found that the tavernas will issue a receipt for the first drinks, but after that, nothing. I guess they feel this will cover them if a revenue type scans the tables and sees a receipt in the shot glass.

 

[charles_reed]

We not spend much time in Greece this year , only about three months in all so far , but yes your right less and less receipt
, I offen through about saying , I not going to pay as there no receipt , but hey what's the point .
Greece is Greece and not the EU or any one else is every going to change it .

By law (and I've seen it quite often at cash tills) you are not obliged to pay for anything without an invoice (presumably a VAT one).
However I suspect that the bubbling resentment in Greece is about to break out into direct disobedience. Interestingly not so much directed at their politicians but at Brussels and the Frau Doktor:-

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/03/syriza-future-greece-europe-radical-left

When this all bubbles over I think the Commission and the EC establishment are going to long for whinging Cameron and stroppy Renzi back again.
The big caldera bubbling is all the tax-evasion deals that Junkers did with all those big multinationals whilst he was Luxembourg PM. He'll be the guy for the US internal revenue, the UK HM Revenue and Customs, France and Germany - we may even see the mechanism of the resignation of the President of the Commission in action.

 

[Ken_Irby]

Now that I live with the island Greeks, I can understand their feeling that all the tax goes to Athens and very little in the way of benefits or improvements comes back here TO the islands, it is all spent in Attica or Northern Greece.
This is a widely held opinion.

Kentrina

 

[Bertramdriver]

Yup, they're at it again. My observation is that the Greeks have had enough of being told what to do and how to do it by the troika bureaucrats. Any conversation about the Euro evokes a strongly negative reaction. Greece is an inherrantly socialist country (with the normal corruption and nepotism that socialism implies) and the traditional right wing solutions of austerity, restraint and fiscal honesty go against the grain. Going back to the brown envelope has taken on the overtones of a protest vote.
It also possible that the treasuries success with the last bond issue coupled with the mounting popularity of the left wing parties could lead to the Greece bailing out of the Euro after all.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Now that I live with the island Greeks, I can understand their feeling that all the tax goes to Athens and very little in the way of benefits or improvements comes back here TO the islands, it is all spent in Attica or Northern Greece.
This is a widely held opinion.

Kentrina

Kentrinal that may be very true , but pocketing the money doesn't help the islands . Let face it no one like paying taxes , well unless you Talking about the Greek cruising tax and us Brit another story ,

 

[Bertramdriver]

Kentrinal that may be very true , but pocketing the money doesn't help the islands . Let face it no one like paying taxes , well unless you Talking about the Greek cruising tax and you Brit another story ,

Hi Vic, don't agree. You can't apply our standards to greece. It took them 3000 years to get here. The average island taverna / hotel/ Garage owner doesn't give a damn about Athens or his local economy. All he is interested in is his car/ house / boat and family. All the rest of civic services happen by magic.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hi Vic, don't agree. You can't apply our standards to greece. It took them 3000 years to get here. The average island taverna / hotel/ Garage owner doesn't give a damn about Athens or his local economy. All he is interested in is his car/ house / boat and family. All the rest of civic services happen by magic.

Sounds just like the rest of the world working class

 

[Davy_S]

the people in Greece who you have to feel sorry for are the youth, the future. They are among the most depressed. There simply is no work for them unless in the tourist sector, and the wages are bobbins. They have to accept pittance wages just to get EKA (benefit and nhs equivalent) there is no dole for them, unless they have worked for over two years. There are two types of dole payments, a seasonal workers, and full time jobseekers. Pupils in their last year at school, can retake that year if they wish, a lot do, because they have nothing else. The only alternative is to seek employment in another eu country. This could be seen on tv, Greek nurses moving to the north west uk. Corruption and the problems it brings is the cause of all of this, it needs an iron fist to stamp it out, unfortunately sadly lacking.

 

[Moodyjim]

As a Greek friend of mine says "Greece is poor, Greeks are not"

 

[Caladh]

My point is, having gone through all these recent years of austerity - still on-going,
are they going to throw it all away now by reverting to their old ways ?

 

[Ravi]

Hi Vic, don't agree. You can't apply our standards to greece. It took them 3000 years to get here.

I am not sure whether you are saying Greece is, inherently, backward. I would disagree with that. For most of the last 3000 years, Greece has had a more developed culture, political system than Northern Europe.

The average island taverna / hotel/ Garage owner doesn't give a damn about Athens or his local economy. All he is interested in is his car/ house / boat and family. All the rest of civic services happen by magic.

I think that is an over generalisation. Traditionally, Greece has had a very strong sense of local identity and local self sufficiency, largely based on Church and family. Greece has a history of local co-operatives and much of the education, local amenities, etc. have been raised by local subscriptions and local fund raising.

The average Greek may not give a damn about "Athens or the local economy" but he is fiercely patriotic about his country and does care about his local community.

The time when people sought a job that 'contributed to society' rather than one that 'paid the most' is as distant in Britain as it is in Greece. In fact, I would say that there is more political idealism in Greece than Britain. It is just that, in Greece, the systems of control and taxation that we "enjoy" in the UK are absent so there is more corruption.

 

[Bertramdriver]

Sorry Ravi. I did not intend to denigrate Greece. I was making the point that we cannot apply (arrogantly) our cultural standards to an ancient culture.
The trap they've built for themselves is that believed they could have a welfare for all society without anyone paying for it (EU excepted)
IMO Greece is killing its future trying to fit into the EU one size fits all society. They would do better sorting their problems out in their own way without our or the troika's interference.

 

[charles_reed]

Sorry Ravi. I did not intend to denigrate Greece. I was making the point that we cannot apply (arrogantly) our cultural standards to an ancient culture.
The trap they've built for themselves is that believed they could have a welfare for all society without anyone paying for it (EU excepted)
IMO Greece is killing its future trying to fit into the EU one size fits all society. They would do better sorting their problems out in their own way without our or the troika's interference.

I cannot agree with your observation - essentially the Greek dream, of cream and jam on everything for everyone is fatally flawed. Since the formation of the Greek state in 1823 they have defaulted on their sovereign debt on 5 occasions (1826, 1843, 1860, 1894 and 1932). I'd agree it's a cultural thing, the first record of a Greek sovereign default was during the 4th century BC.
The Greek economy is so crippled by structural rigidities that they cannot hope to match the productivity of other advanced industrial nations.
It's no accident that, for the last 3 thousand years, their one consistent and successful export has been of people.
The unpleasant, inequitable diktat of the troika is really a last chance wake-up for the Greek State to recognise the basic flaw in their dream and forge a working economic state. Even now the 8% of the Greek population who are creaming off about 80% of the Greek GNP are totally unaffected by the disciplines being exerted on their countrymen.
It's alleged there are 12 individuals who could clear the Greek state debt in 24 hours!!
Left to their own devices they'd have a broken economy and the € would probably disintegrate - the 3rd time a European common currency has collapsed.
My daughter works in academe - she has 3 Greek colleagues in her School of Engineering. Not one of them can afford to go back to Greece to work - they'll probably return as retirees, like the ones I meet all over the islands - all of whom have made a packet outside Greece and now have returned home to enjoy their declining years.
For the Greeks the one lifeline they have remaining is the EC and its open immigration policies, because IMHO they're not going to change their economic habits unless it's forced on them, being pastmasters at sidestepping rules, and they'll have a perennially broken, unviable economy.

 

[Tony Cross]

I cannot agree with your observation - essentially the Greek dream, of cream and jam on everything for everyone is fatally flawed. Since the formation of the Greek state in 1823 they have defaulted on their sovereign debt on 5 occasions (1826, 1843, 1860, 1894 and 1932). I'd agree it's a cultural thing, the first record of a Greek sovereign default was during the 4th century BC.
The Greek economy is so crippled by structural rigidities that they cannot hope to match the productivity of other advanced industrial nations.
It's no accident that, for the last 3 thousand years, their one consistent and successful export has been of people.
The unpleasant, inequitable diktat of the troika is really a last chance wake-up for the Greek State to recognise the basic flaw in their dream and forge a working economic state. Even now the 8% of the Greek population who are creaming off about 80% of the Greek GNP are totally unaffected by the disciplines being exerted on their countrymen.
It's alleged there are 12 individuals who could clear the Greek state debt in 24 hours!!
Left to their own devices they'd have a broken economy and the € would probably disintegrate - the 3rd time a European common currency has collapsed.
My daughter works in academe - she has 3 Greek colleagues in her School of Engineering. Not one of them can afford to go back to Greece to work - they'll probably return as retirees, like the ones I meet all over the islands - all of whom have made a packet outside Greece and now have returned home to enjoy their declining years.
For the Greeks the one lifeline they have remaining is the EC and its open immigration policies, because IMHO they're not going to change their economic habits unless it's forced on them, being pastmasters at sidestepping rules, and they'll have a perennially broken, unviable economy.

The Greek people are hugely proud of their Byzantine heritage and would re-establish the Byzantine empire in a heartbeat if they could. As a nation they look back in dismay at the loss of that empire and of course blame the Turks for taking Constantinople away from them in 1453. What they don't see is that their modern way of life, and much of the way the Greek state functions, has been directly inherited from the Byzantines, where who you knew was more important than what you knew, where corruption was rife, where money paid to the state went into official's pockets, and where you had to put yourself and your family first or you'd never survive. Modern Turkey has the advantage of having had Kemal Ataturk drag them forcibly (and kicking and screaming) into the 20th Century, Greece never had that advantage, they're still Byzantine at heart (and in thought). It's only recently for example that the practice of paying state employees in 14 instalments per year (a Byzantine practice) was stopped (by the Troika I believe). I honestly think that Greece needs an Ataturk, sadly the Troika is not it - they are looking for short-term political solutions to satisfy the northern European voters - because it's not just that the economy is broken, the problem is that the whole culture, attitude and outlook of most elderly and middle-aged Greeks is Byzantine. The young, who have been exposed to the west most of their lives, can see this and I think Greece will have to wait until today's young are in control before there will be genuine and serious change in the country.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Lots of google in going on in this thread ,

 

[Tony Cross]

Lots of google in going on in this thread ,

Now, now. You shouldn't judge everyone else by your own standards.