Grab bags?

Re: Grab bags? ORC Specs

Oh my goodness!

Which do you put in the liferaft - the crew or the grab bag and ditch kit? Certainly isn't room enough for all in ours (in case someone seriously suggests a larger raft, the raft should be sized to the number of crew and preferably not be oversized for the case of rough conditions).

It should be pointed out before everyone rushes out to buy all the items mentioned in order to stock their grab bags that the current ISAF Special Regulations for Cat 1 nor Cat 0 do not require that items ordinarily required to be on the boat be duplicated eg one does not need to buy 2 x 406 EPIRBs in order to comply. They are expected to be stowed in the grab bag however.

Also the ditch kit is not from the ISAF Special regulations at all, unless it is squirrelled away from most of us in some place yet to be discovered.

Because of the large open sea area around New Zealand (NAVAREA XIV, for which NZ is responsible, is one of the largest search and rescue areas in the world) all departing NZ flagged pleasure vessels have to submit to a safety inspection before departure overseas, which subject to flexible interpretation to suit the circumstances approximates CAT 1. The emphasis is on rapid location and recovery, not on the ability to survive for more than the time it takes the nearest aid to reach one. I cannot recall any NZ yacht being lost without trace, in recent years, in the departure voyage from NZ (at least 1200 plus nm to next reasonably big landfall) nor of an instance where the crew of a lost vessel have not been recovered in much more than a day if they had time to get into the raft and the conditions were survivable in that.

As most forumites live in areas with far larger rescue services resources concentrated over far smaller NAVAREAs, perhaps the above should be kept in mind when stocking a grab bag.

John


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Re: Grab bags? ORC Specs

I suspect that many of these official recommendations are led more by fear of litigation than by common sense

<hr width=100% size=1> I asked an economist for her phone number....and she gave me an estimate
 
Re: handheld GPS

Hi Robin

I was assuming that if one was going to put a GPS in the grab bag one would already have had an EPIRB as a consequence of that being a higher priority safety item. We always (always!!!!) carry a 406 MHz EPIRB and it has priority over the liferaft for deployment and they, of course, have a 121 MHz homing beacon.

A very Merry Christmas from here, also I always enjoy your posts Robin - thanks.

Regards

John

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Re: Shades

Most of my sailing will be done in relatively busy waters so the contents of mine are for attracting attention. Flares,HH VHF,GPS to give exact position over VHF,121.5 EPIRB.Foghorn,bottle of water,glucose tablets.

<hr width=100% size=1>.. when's that again, but ..
 
Re: Shades

The replies so far have things well covered. Just a couple of points. My spare AA batteries (6 in a special watertight container) are lithium, for the shelf life.

As to the GPS. It is icing, but it could be life saving. My reading suggests that aircraft may not be able to find you, even if they are looking in the right-ish spot. My EPIRB does not have build in GPS. Having a vhf and gps tells them exactly where to look. Rememer AWB means two things to SAR crew... Another White Boat, and Another Wave Breaking.

Everything in the ORC list seems eminently desirable, but 'reasonable'.....?

My grab-bag has built in buoyancy, so it can indeed be well filled, it also has a D-ring for serious attachment to whatever.

My EPIRB normally resides in the GB. I have heard all the counterarguments but that's my decision.

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all
 
Re: handheld GPS

Hi John

The EPIRB would be top of my shopping list if we were moving out of our current cruising areas where we are within VHF range of something be it ships or land, usually both. Again this shows how priorities are pulled by what we sail or where and also local practices. In your case as you said in another post the next destination of any size is 1200nm, in ours it is maybe 20nm or 60nm if going 'foreign', and in an area with the busiest shipping lanes in the world. Plus local regulations are more voluntary than compulsory in the UK which allows some discussion of what to carry. A lot of UK boats for example will not even carry liferafts but rely on partially inflated dinghies, or just hire a raft for the main summer cruise. French regulations are more formalised depending on the distance from a safe harbour though I sometimes think they stretch their own rules somewhat in practice. We have a very good safety record too in the UK, so the voluntary approach seems to work and long may it continue! Jungle drums tell us that NZ regs are very strict indeed!

Priorites in our waters might be firstly for quick deployment (for the rundown by ship or fire scenarios) then for attracting attention. Long term survival beyond a few hours is a secondary consideration until we start going much farther afield. Our waters are cold too even in summer so that is a consideration even for a short stay in a raft.

Always enjoy your posts too thanks John,

Robin



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Re: Shades

Agreed too. Our 121.5 sets are personal overboard devices primarily with an alarm receiver on board, but activate on sea contact or manually. Range I believe is limited at sea level to a few miles but much greater to search helicopters or aircraft. We have just upgraded too to a DSC VHF on board, but I'm mindful that the Moody that was rundown had no chance to use theirs, hence again our GB with handheld VHF resides in an easily accessible cockpit locker! A H/H GPS might find it's way into my luggage next trip stateside, given the current rates of exchange..

Seasons greetings

Robin

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Re: Shades

Grab bag is downstairs next to the chart table with the hh vhf and gps in netting pocket next to it. So in emergency grab grab bag and two hhs at same time.

<hr width=100% size=1>.. when's that again, but ..
 
Re: Shades

Mine is immy to hand in pilot berth behind nav seat. h/h vhf and gps are in bag, along with EPIRB, flares, and the rest. Worst case scenario is rammed and sinking in a few minutes. If I need the h/h (actually I have two in the bag) I can always get a flare or h/h out, but I may not have time to do anything more than grab the bag and jump (hopefully into a liferaft).

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all
 
Re: handheld GPS

Reading 'Pacific Rescue' and some of the accounts surrounding your own S-H catasrophe, it appears that 'seeing' a craft from a rescue ship or aircraft can be pretty tricky. So an EPIRB c/w GPS or being able to communicate with the liferaft and get GPS readings from the 'crew' of the liferafte are almost imperative. The white hull of a boat is almost impossible to spot in breaking seas.


<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all
 
Re: Grab bags? ORC Specs

With an EPIRB you shouldn't have to worry about medium to long term, surely?

On a deadly serious note, my first mate would not be seen dead in a liferaft without toilet paper ! ;-))

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all
 
Re: Shades

The concern of many, seems to be abandoning in the event of sudden sinking etc - being run down by merchant ships/gas explosion/whale attack etc.
If this does occur, (1) it must be imperative that any liferaft can be deployed instantly - already on deck (not at the bottom of a locker) or hydrostatic release. (2) that any 'emergency' gear &/or provisions (whatever are finally choosen), are already packed in the liferaft - may be little time to get any 'grab-bag' & even the extensive ORC kit is useless if not with the survivors.
Getting bodies into a liferaft can be a major problem & some people have been lost at this point. This is well taught on sea survival courses, but how many of us could do this and hang onto any grab-bag as well? This extra problem is rarely practiced. Perhaps a practice simulation with a 'grab-bag' - whilst attempting to get into our avon/zodiacs at a summer anchorage might be more rewarding than reaching for another cold 'tinnie'.

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Re: Shades

Speaking for myself, the prospect of any dire emergency is pretty remote, and the possible sudden sinking has to be vanishingly small - but the worst case is the best to plan for, that way anything else is subsumed. I agree about l/r deployment. As far as handling the grab-bag, mine is purpose build by ARC, and it has a D-ring solidly build in, and my intention is to throw the GB in the water and me into l/raft if possible, pulling GB in subsequently. The line attached to the D-ring is about 30m of 8mm nylon. Let's just hope it doesn't come to that though......

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all
 
Re: handheld GPS

Hi Robin

Yes, I understand the situation there. But I find the thread intriguing as while plenty of other interesting things are listed as being carried, I think only DeeGee has specifically mentioned he carrys an EPIRB and I don't think anyone has mentioned they carry a 406MHz EPIRB. I think most SAR authorities recommendation would be that a 406 EPIRB should be first on the list, even if that means it is the only thing on the list, and be the first priority in abandoning ship.

In our own situation coastal, in the event of a quick sinking, the EPIRB would be the first thing I would grab and enable, then the liferaft. Even around the remote NZ coast, with a 406 MHz EPIRB you would probably have a helicopter over you within 1-1/2 hours, and in populated areas quicker - upon deployment there is instant detection and identification of the vessel in distress (and if a GPS equipped EPIRB, the position as well within 100 metres), 30 - 45 mins or so for the first fix to arrive from Paris (during which time the SAR authorities will have already called your 3 nominated watch telephone number holders to verify that you are at sea and your likely whereabouts, and will have deployed the helicopter), 1 hour to fly to the fix (which is updated about every 60 minutes) and fly you down on the 121 beacon (that is if they cannot see you from the fix - by the time the helicopter get to you it will probably have a satellite fix down to within 1 - 3 nm). If close to a population centre the recovery would be much quicker.

Apart from that, unlike anything else electronic one will have on board, the EPIRB is designed to swim, is meant to swim and the moment it does swim it will self enable if not already manually switched on.

I would imagine in the English Channel with far more ready deployment of resources, you would be out of the raft very, very quickly.

In most (probably all) parts of the world, the only electronic alerting or position fixing equipment required for deployment by small commercial coastal vessels is a 406 MHz EPIRB.

Harping on a bit I know, but what is being said in the thread seems to ignore the by far most important item of equipment one should abandon ship with.

Boringly, John

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Re: handheld GPS

Hi DeeGee

The item of equipment I questioned was the GPS, not the VHF. If you have the VHF you can talk the search craft to you (you will be able to see it, or if not, unless in fog, it will get into your visibilty in very short time by simply heading into your radio coverage). If you have a 406 EPIRB as the universal SAR recommendation is, you will definitely see the search craft as it will go straight to the fix (or home on the beacon). I carry a 406 EPIRB and don't bother with having a handheld VHF specifically stowed ready to take in an emergency (and I would not waste time looking for it), as the search craft will go straight to the fix (within a mile or two from you) and if an aircraft will fly down the beacon, so flares are sufficient.

John

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Re: Shades

Our grab bag and flare bottle both have lanyards and maybe one answer is to tie them to the liferaft painter before jumping/climbing in.

The reasons for deployment of a liferaft are many, but the catastrophic scenario of explosion/serious fire we heard over the radio from about 8mls away in the shipping lanes off Ushant as well as the rundown Moody that sank in seconds are the ones that make me have GB/flares to hand in the cockpit locker and the raft on an easy release cradle on the pushpit. Sinking from bad weather is less likely IMO and likely to give more time to prepare things to take.

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Re: Shades

Would perhaps suggest that the fog scenario is the most likely where perhaps the thingies ought to be in the cockpit. My liferaft is mounted on a cradle on the pushpit. Fire on the other hand .. just want to get off .. the fire itself should attaract attention to you?

<hr width=100% size=1>.. when's that again, but ..
 
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