GPS is sooo yesterday.

[DownWest]

I tend to think that experience and basic training (I too, still have my slide rule) give you the back ground to evaluate infomation. Without that, one has to base ones ideas entirely on the 'lectronics. Bit like the truckys that find themselves in little villages with no room, because they rely on their GPS.

 

[Macka1706]

I started a thread a couple of months ago regarding user defined bathymetry. Specifically how they account for tide and barometric pressure variations. Educated replies suggested that much of what you see is not derived from users but a clever app that interpolates bathymetry data to form what are essentially best guess contours. To test this I took a look at the Flannan Isles off the Outer Hebrides. There is incredible detail on C-Map that I find difficult to comprehend given their remoteness and lack of attraction. Maybe they are frequented by fishermen and divers who also happen to share their data. But I think looking at various remote areas and the detail in the depth contours, I find it hard to believe that it is anything other than interpolation. Perhaps you can provide details on how much of what we see on plotters is derived from users and how much is just pretty infill from existing data?

And I am not a complete Luddite. I just recognise we are free to make our own choices on how we navigate. I just wonder how much of this fancy new tech is necessary, how much is just nice to have and how much is simply to part us from our cash. Of course we are free to choose what we use and don’t have to justify to anyone but ourselves.

Hey.
90% of "modern" technology. Which is no more accurate than needed than prev. Is to open YOUR wallet "THis is the latest". "Ooooh I MUST have."
Basically. We got there on paper, pencils, and a bit of luck. Coastal was sights and coastal deflection plus Tides and current. Hand compass (H/Held RDF, me.). list of lights. and Airports.
Modern tech just makes us lazy and slack. Look at how many run aground nowadays. I enjoy the old ways. and sail handling,
Every boat getting wet should have local charts. Divider. H/H Compass and Calc plus "List of lights." THAT thing lists every pole and marker sticking out of the water in it's area listing. K for Aust PNG/NZ. Western Pacific Ocean. $95
I always took centre of 3 sights Triangulated.
Try it. It's fun. and frustrating on a bad day chuckle. (clouds and bumpy water).
Tip. PREset your Elevation first.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Hey.
90% of "modern" technology. Which is no more accurate than needed than prev. Is to open YOUR wallet "THis is the latest". "Ooooh I MUST have."

I always took centre of 3 sights Triangulated.
Try it. It's fun. and frustrating on a bad day chuckle. (clouds and bumpy water).
Tip. PREset your Elevation first.

What tech are you using to post on here, a pencil, a carrier pidgin, code flags?

Why the middle of a three point fix?

 

[lustyd]

Modern tech just makes us lazy and slack

Nonsense. Modern tech allows many more people to go boating safely and return home. There's nothing lazy at all, just smart people using the best tools available to them. You're only aware of people running aground now because you use technology to find out!

Every boat getting wet should have local charts. Divider. H/H Compass and Calc plus "List of lights."

Why? What possible reason would someone have to buy local charts, divider, compass etc. if they have no intention of ever using them? When we cruise in the Solent there is no reason to have anything more than a bottle of sunscreen, and usually that's optional!

I always took centre of 3 sights Triangulated.

Then statistically speaking, your plotted position was almost always wrong!

 

[Macka1706]

Nonsense. Modern tech allows many more people to go boating safely and return home. There's nothing lazy at all, just smart people using the best tools available to them. You're only aware of people running aground now because you use technology to find out!

Why? What possible reason would someone have to buy local charts, divider, compass etc. if they have no intention of ever using them? When we cruise in the Solent there is no reason to have anything more than a bottle of sunscreen, and usually that's optional!


Then statistically speaking, your plotted position was almost always wrong!

Nonsense. Modern tech allows many more people to go boating safely and return home. There's nothing lazy at all, just smart people using the best tools available to them. You're only aware of people running aground now because you use technology to find out!

Why? What possible reason would someone have to buy local charts, divider, compass etc. if they have no intention of ever using them? When we cruise in the Solent there is no reason to have anything more than a bottle of sunscreen, and usually that's optional!


Then statistically speaking, your plotted position was almost always wrong!

I was talking about b4 your electronics and doing it modern day because I like it,I used to gps chart then Navigate properly.
It keeps the brain busy. Quite a lot of people I know Still do it the old ways out of enjoyment. Most Ocean Sailors/racers do it too. Just in case. More interesting than following a dotted line on an electronic chart machine. Like I said. Most modern sailors are getting too lazy.
Triangulation. is for when at sea. bumpy. Spotty Sights. The best of three is safer. Used to do same with Coastal sights, 3 lines. Triangulate. YOU in the middle somewhere.Or did you never do that. (go to sea and have to get back again?.) Your age you must have done some navigating somewhere

"".Then statistically speaking, your plotted position was almost always wrong!""

Chuckle..... Try it yourself sometime. There would be plenty of Instruction on how to on Google. There'd be some marks.lights Airport round the Solent?. Is it very big?.Lake or river. Born a Geordie left in'58/9. for West Germany Canada. Sth Africa then Aust.. Can't remember much about the place.

 

[lustyd]

YOU in the middle somewhere.Or did you never do that. (go to sea and have to get back again?.) Your age you must have done some navigating somewhere

"".Then statistically speaking, your plotted position was almost always wrong!""

Chuckle..... Try it yourself sometime. There would be plenty of Instruction on how to on Google. There'd be some marks.lights Airport round the Solent?. Is it very big?.Lake or river. Born a Geordie left in'58/9. for West Germany Canada. Sth Africa then Aust.. Can't remember much about the place.

Yes, done it many times. Statistically you're not in the middle. It's basic maths, I like to keep my brain busy...

 

[capnsensible]

Moving back to the op. The main thrust of the report is that the chances of corruption in gps signals is increasing. So the development of an alternative is under way. Obviously the military requirement is lead. Hence, for example, the RN experimental vessel taking the early version to sea for evaluation and trials.
So one day in the future as always with gadgets let's hope it becomes affordable and size compatible for those who enjoy sailing out on the briny far from land.
In the meantime the enlightened who can use stars, planets, moon and sun will continue to practice and pass on the skills to those who like to learn something new, pass time doing something useful and enjoying themselves. With a proper back up to signal corruption.
Nothing hair shirt or whatever about it. That's simple exaggeration in my opinion.

But however you navigate, no technique is wrong. Just.....different.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I was talking about b4 your electronics and doing it modern day because I like it,I used to gps chart then Navigate properly.
It keeps the brain busy. Quite a lot of people I know Still do it the old ways out of enjoyment. Most Ocean Sailors/racers do it too. Just in case. More interesting than following a dotted line on an electronic chart machine. Like I said. Most modern sailors are getting too lazy.
Triangulation. is for when at sea. bumpy. Spotty Sights. The best of three is safer. Used to do same with Coastal sights, 3 lines. Triangulate. YOU in the middle somewhere.Or did you never do that. (go to sea and have to get back again?.) Your age you must have done some navigating somewhere

"".Then statistically speaking, your plotted position was almost always wrong!""

Chuckle..... Try it yourself sometime. There would be plenty of Instruction on how to on Google. There'd be some marks.lights Airport round the Solent?. Is it very big?.Lake or river. Born a Geordie left in'58/9. for West Germany Canada. Sth Africa then Aust.. Can't remember much about the place.

You were not really talking about pre GPS days, you were slagging off people who buy electronic navigation equipment, implying that they must buy, because of some desire to own the latest device. I think most people buy modern electronic navigation equipment for other reasons than they must have the latest device. Do you honestly think that you are somehow more informed than those who choose to buy? I don’t think you are.

I am quite sure, from the people I know who sail oceans, that they are all using modern electronic navigation systems and none are using a sextant. I am also sure, from the people I know who race, that they too are using modern, electronic systems for positioning and that many have upgraded for devices that are integrated with wind, depth and water speed instruments, using digital tide data to calculate lay lines and display VMG et cetera. I think you are ignorant of the status and uptake of modern systems.

It’s cool if you navigate how you want, but to think that users of modern systems don’t understand, or are not competent to navigate using non electronic means, is ignorant of the skills that many self develop or learn from sailing schools.

 

[Macka1706]

Yes, done it many times. Statistically you're not in the middle. It's basic maths, I like to keep my brain busy...

Yep, In those days pre ,70's Nav was all approximation. according to accuracy of the individual sights. No mater how good your math was.You can take 5 sights in bumpy water (waves around height of spreaders and higher.) cloudy sky, tired eyes at the end of a 3 or 4 day blow by yourself. ,and they'll all have variations. Even SatNav's were only approximate. I know. But they saved a lot of paper. Most of us do it because we enjoy it. Like I often rewrap the eyes on the fishing rods I made. Need it?.No. I enjoy it. relaxing.
We all have our idiosyncrasies. Ask my Missus. Chuckle.

 

[Macka1706]

<<<<<<<<<< The reason (one of) I stay married.

 

[zoidberg]

I’m not saying computers and calculators are wrong, just that we need to select the best tool for the job at hand and sometimes old stuff works just fine

Yes, and that's assuming one has several tools handy, and hasn't chucked out all the reliable old tools when the shiny new one is delivered - which may or may not be reliable ( as users of Raymarine integrated systems are lamenting over on Sailing Anarchy ).

And every bit as important as retaining the old tools is retaining the knowhow to use them reliably. ( anyone want a pro compass swing done? 'Have pelorus, will travel.' )

 

[zoidberg]

Yep, In those days pre ,70's Nav was all approximation. according to accuracy of the individual sights. No mater how good your math was.You can take 5 sights in bumpy water (waves around height of spreaders and higher.) cloudy sky, tired eyes at the end of a 3 or 4 day blow by yourself. ,and they'll all have variations. Even SatNav's were only approximate. I know. But they saved a lot of paper. Most of us do it because we enjoy it. Like I often rewrap the eyes on the fishing rods I made. Need it?.No. I enjoy it. relaxing.
We all have our idiosyncrasies. Ask my Missus. Chuckle.

Then someone mentioned Linear Regression, Sum of Least Squares and similar calculator exotica.....

 

[Macka1706]

You were not really talking about pre GPS days, you were slagging off people who buy electronic navigation equipment, implying that they must buy, because of some desire to own the latest device. I think most people buy modern electronic navigation equipment for other reasons than they must have the latest device. Do you honestly think that you are somehow more informed than those who choose to buy? I don’t think you are.

I am quite sure, from the people I know who sail oceans, that they are all using modern electronic navigation systems and none are using a sextant. I am also sure, from the people I know who race, that they too are using modern, electronic systems for positioning and that many have upgraded for devices that are integrated with wind, depth and water speed instruments, using digital tide data to calculate lay lines and display VMG et cetera. I think you are ignorant of the status and uptake of modern systems.

It’s cool if you navigate how you want, but to think that users of modern systems don’t understand, or are not competent to navigate using non electronic means, is ignorant of the skills that many self develop or learn from sailing schools.

Try reading again. I use Electronics. Just saying. A lot of us oldies enjoy the old school. It's actually "relaxing". Makes a change from reading books and looking at the waves behind you. (Done that too. Big buggars) I've gone through the Sextant/Sliderool, Calculator/SayNav/Gps stages. Convenient. yes. BUT. What do you modern Navigators do. coupla days/weeks out when the electronics go whoops. Take a compass bearing?..
Even coastal. (strange coast). You need charts to identify lights/markers. Hills and Airport bearings. They don't move.
I've actually half taught a few young persons that asked,in the club I was in. Getting boats ready for O/Seas.Round world trips.
Show the basics. Gives incentive to continue while sailing on legs with everything done. That happens a lot . Sitting around on long tacks/legs. Sometimes days.

 

[Macka1706]

similar calculator exotica

Linear Regression etc. All look (on google) like a chart plotted route with actual sights marked on a bumpy trip to weather.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I look forward to the day when I can navigate my boat through an AI ... motor out of the marina and simply say to my boat "Suggest a quiet anchorage we haven't been to before which is safe for an overnight stop .... and get us there in time for a swim and pre-dinner drinks .... sailing would be preferable to motoring." .... up pops a route and I have a quick look, and decide to engage the auto-pilot and roll out the sails. The boat takes care of electricity generation and water-making and I can relax with my crew in the Mediterranean sunshine and watch the world go by.

... and as for the electronics going whoops .... a human being makes navigational errors way more often than a modern plotter. A human takes longer, gets emotional, gets tired, gets angry, gets ill, refuses to admit their mistakes, gets belligerent, is subject to external pressure ... and eventually loses their cognitive ability.

Why on earth would anyone rely on their aging Grandpa with a pencil and paper over an electronic system specifically designed to have up-to-the minute charts and a state-of-the-art positioning system? Grandpa would be second choice every time.

I think it's great that so many old-school navigators still love their pencils, dividers, hand-bearing compasses and paper charts. I won't ask which is best, a parallel ruler, a pair of set squares or, heaven forbid, a new-fangled Breton plotter .... might start a fight.

But for heavens sake, technology is simply better at the job - doing it all by hand is a necessary evil if the technology ever fails IMO - but human error has caused more close calls on my boats over my lifetime than technology ever has.

 

[Macka1706]

I look forward to the day when I can navigate my boat through an AI ... motor out of the marina and simply say to my boat "Suggest a quiet anchorage we haven't been to before which is safe for an overnight stop .... and get us there in time for a swim and pre-dinner drinks .... sailing would be preferable to motoring." .... up pops a route and I have a quick look, and decide to engage the auto-pilot and roll out the sails. The boat takes care of electricity generation and water-making and I can relax with my crew in the Mediterranean sunshine and watch the world go by.

... and as for the electronics going whoops .... a human being makes navigational errors way more often than a modern plotter. A human takes longer, gets emotional, gets tired, gets angry, gets ill, refuses to admit their mistakes, gets belligerent, is subject to external pressure ... and eventually loses their cognitive ability.

Why on earth would anyone rely on their aging Grandpa with a pencil and paper over an electronic system specifically designed to have up-to-the minute charts and a state-of-the-art positioning system? Grandpa would be second choice every time.

I think it's great that so many old-school navigators still love their pencils, dividers, hand-bearing compasses and paper charts. I won't ask which is best, a parallel ruler, a pair of set squares or, heaven forbid, a new-fangled Breton plotter .... might start a fight.

But for heavens sake, technology is simply better at the job - doing it all by hand is a necessary evil if the technology ever fails IMO - but human error has caused more close calls on my boats over my lifetime than technology ever has.

Jesus. From the start I;ve said I use electronics and gone through the different levels up tto GPS. All I'm saying is. It's Enjoyable to some and relaxing too. Mentally. Seeing how accurate YOU can be in relation to.
Going Whoops was more the fact you losing power totally. Sometimes it can.
I also make fishing rods. Binding runners by hand not machine. have done that for over 60 yrs too. Again, relaxing. I'm down to around 13/15 rods now. From Bream Sticks, to Barra to Jig, to deepwater and 30lb Game rollered sticks. We get Marlin and BIG Spanish/Cobia here. Tuna further North. Try fighting a 50 to 100 kilo Marlin off the stern of your 32 ft yacht.
Often you run out of string. on your 6.0 sized reel or cut it off with your 4ft 10in keel. but great fun.
Just find something that's relaxing to cover spare time is all. At my age there tends to be a lot of it. Not so active.

 

[lustyd]

doing it all by hand is a necessary evil if the technology ever fails

If my two onboard plotters fail I use my handheld plotter. Worst case my Garmin watch has all the charts on and lasts a couple of months on battery.

 

[Macka1706]

Yes, and that's assuming one has several tools handy, and hasn't chucked out all the reliable old tools when the shiny new one is delivered - which may or may not be reliable ( as users of Raymarine integrated systems are lamenting over on Sailing Anarchy ).

And every bit as important as retaining the old tools is retaining the knowhow to use them reliably. ( anyone want a pro compass swing done? 'Have pelorus, will travel.' )

Swinging.
40 +yrs ago our club (when driving some new channel poles). Outside of channel drove in 2 extra poles True N and South. So anybody in the know could swing theirs. Magnetic variation here known.
Lash boat fore and aft. then rotate to suit on lines.

 

[[70521]]

But make sure you have a pencil sharpener!!

I have several good knives.

 

[zoidberg]

I look forward to the day when I can navigate my boat through an AI ... motor out of the marina and simply say to my boat ......

Sounds like a candidate for sending his GoPro out on the boat and watching it all go by from the safety of his couch at home, wearing AV goggles and viewing the input from the sensors and camera battling the ocean miles away. Perhaps one of the legion of YouTube Sailors....