Golden Globe Race

[Seajet]

I am starting to wonder if the issue might be the slow speeds of these boats? It is looking like faster, wide sterned narrow keel Vendee Globe boats have recently survived the Southern Ocean much better than the GGR fleet.
The Vendee Boats are flying through the southern ocean at 20+ knots, and surfing down the biggest waves. This means they get overtaken by much fewer waves between Capetown and Cape Horn, and the relative speed of the waves much less.
Some other reports of Sydney Hobart storms etc suggested keeping sailing had better outcomes than slowing.

Yes it seems proven the way to go in say the Southern Ocean is a lightwieght dragster type boat - with a big crew of gorillas, which is THE problem.

A singlehander can't slalom down waves at 15+ knots for days on end, and nor can an autopilot, so it seems one has to take the traditional ' make it strong and tough it out ' approach.

I don't think keel profile makes much difference if blasted sideways, though a fin keel with even a slightly winged effect bulb might hopefully penetrate the surface drift layer and the wing / bulb provide some grip; whether this helps reduce leeway or results in the boat getting hammered more is for other more experienced ocean sailors.

Re trailing warps, I think it was Moitissier who described Joshua feeling pinned by the stern in huge seas, then he cut the trailing warps - ' in a second she felt free and alive again '.

I don't remember what happened when even he was too knackered to helm any more though...

 

[Wansworth]

In my Yachting books you “hove to” and retire below and drink tea or if it gets worse set a sea anchour...

 

[Seajet]

While a drogue / sea anchor is handy for lots of things and I always carry one, I think the days when the idea of using one from the bow in a really serious gale / storm are over.

 

[Kukri]

I've never got beyond the "set trysail, back spitfire, lash helm half down, make sure she is fore reaching so she doesn't sit back on the rudder, get in bunk, sort out leeboard, get in sleeping bag, wake me when its over" stage.

And I hope I never do.

 

[Seajet]

Though my boat has a very strong solid iroko rudder, full length of transom stainless mountings and beefed up backing pads, we did that from the start building her, it's the ' being driven backwards onto it ' bit which would worry me as tremendous forces are involved; I think this is, along with the point boats laying to a sea anchor from the bow tend to end up broadside, as the bows naturally blow downwind, is why it's becoming more normal to stream whatever one wishes from the stern now ?

 

[Kukri]

I suppose the only thing that could possibly work, streamed from the bow, is a parachute, but even with that you are going slowly backwards (very slowly backwards, one hopes).

I can see the sense in the series drogue but I can also see the sense in what Moitessier I think called the Vito Dumas technique. Assuming that one could keep it up.

 

[dunedin]

Y

Yes it seems proven the way to go in say the Southern Ocean is a lightwieght dragster type boat - with a big crew of gorillas, which is THE problem.

A singlehander can't slalom down waves at 15+ knots for days on end, and nor can an autopilot, so it seems one has to take the traditional ' make it strong and tough it out ' approach.

Except that the Vendee Globe boats (and Ellen McArthur in her tri etc, etc, etc) do go through the southern ocean at 15+ knots for days on end, under autopilot. With, it would appear, lower attrition rates.
For that sort of sailing the wide stern, twin rudders and modern gyro stabilised autopilots seem to be a very good design for this route singlehanded.

 

[doug748]

I know the test tank work was done by Andy Claughton (and ?) at Southampton in the early 80s. So it will be included in Marchaj's books.

A happy hour. I have got to say that I have reprised Mr Claughton's work and his central thrust is that LOA is the key to resisting breaking waves.

 

[Wansworth]

on Tithe other hand one might be a bit miffed if the year you decided to brave the roaring forties and the dreaded Cape it was a mild Force 5,they are getting their monies worth!

 

[Motor_Sailor]

A happy hour. I have got to say that I have reprised Mr Claughton's work and his central thrust is that LOA is the key to resisting breaking waves.

I think we might be at cross purposes. I was thinking about a vessel lying-a-hull and stationary in the trough, broadside to the wave. From the extract of the 2000 Brest conference on rogue waves:

" . . . much yacht capsizing research has concentrated on wave impact capsizes caused by extreme breaking waves, thought to be a primary cause during the 1979 Fastnet Race disaster. (Kirkman, 1983, Salsich 1983, Claughton 1984, Zseleckzy 1988) These studies showed that in beam seas, the location of the vessel relative to the breaking position of the wave is critical. If the vessel is caught in the curl of a plunging breaker, or in the secondary wave created by the jet impact of the plunger, capsize is possible in waves as small as 1.2 times the beam of the vessel. The roll moment of inertia is also an important parameter because a vessel with a large value of this parameter will roll to a smaller angle on impact but expose the deckhouse and work area to the full impact of the plunging wave jet."

 

[Kelpie]

Y

Except that the Vendee Globe boats (and Ellen McArthur in her tri etc, etc, etc) do go through the southern ocean at 15+ knots for days on end, under autopilot. With, it would appear, lower attrition rates.
For that sort of sailing the wide stern, twin rudders and modern gyro stabilised autopilots seem to be a very good design for this route singlehanded.

Add to your list '60ft long' to get the full picture.

Open 60s don't have a fault free history, either. Plenty of lost keels, rudders, and rigs.

 

[doug748]

I think we might be at cross purposes..."

It's easily done. One thing for sure Minn is probably quite safe unless he finds himself a alongside a 30ft breaking wave

 

[flaming]

Add to your list '60ft long' to get the full picture.

Open 60s don't have a fault free history, either. Plenty of lost keels, rudders, and rigs.

The class 40s have also been down there. And again with quite a low attrition rate. How much of that is to do with having good weather routing and the speed to get out of the way of the nasty stuff, and how much the boat's capabilities to withstand the nasty stuff would be an interesting study.

 

[{151760}]

The class 40s have also been down there. And again with quite a low attrition rate. How much of that is to do with having good weather routing and the speed to get out of the way of the nasty stuff, and how much the boat's capabilities to withstand the nasty stuff would be an interesting study.

I think it might be the case that the 'nasty stuff' can get so nasty that no vessel can guarantee survival, so the information and speed to try and avoid the worst of it are key, perhaps.

 

[bbg]

Y

Except that the Vendee Globe boats (and Ellen McArthur in her tri etc, etc, etc) do go through the southern ocean at 15+ knots for days on end, under autopilot. With, it would appear, lower attrition rates.
For that sort of sailing the wide stern, twin rudders and modern gyro stabilised autopilots seem to be a very good design for this route singlehanded.

Top autopilots (e.g. NKE) are so good that they can handle the acceleration and surfing that the wide 40s, 50s and 60s see on every wave. They outperform a solo sailor hand-steering over the long haul. People get tired. Autopilots don't.

 

[capnsensible]

Top autopilots (e.g. NKE) are so good that they can handle the acceleration and surfing that the wide 40s, 50s and 60s see on every wave. They outperform a solo sailor hand-steering over the long haul. People get tired. Autopilots don't.

Nice to have the wonga, eh?

My wife and I left the Med to do a Caribbean cruise some years ago. Our autopilot broke as we were passing outbound past Tarifa. We hand steered across, up through the islands and back to Gib.

Tiring but we are Very Good At Steering.

Within a short time of getting back, we got a Hydrovane. Second circuit was bliss!

 

[flaming]

Nice to have the wonga, eh?

My wife and I left the Med to do a Caribbean cruise some years ago. Our autopilot broke as we were passing outbound past Tarifa. We hand steered across, up through the islands and back to Gib.

Tiring but we are Very Good At Steering.

Within a short time of getting back, we got a Hydrovane. Second circuit was bliss!

Pootling along in a cruising context, and surfing down waves with a kite up are very different autopilot requirements.

It's also worth saying that the reliability is much improved these days. I don't think the big boys (B&G, NKE etc) liked the bad press of an IMOCA skipper bad mouthing their pilot for failing again, so they've put a lot of work into it.

 

[capnsensible]

Pootling along in a cruising context, and surfing down waves with a kite up are very different autopilot requirements.

It's also worth saying that the reliability is much improved these days. I don't think the big boys (B&G, NKE etc) liked the bad press of an IMOCA skipper bad mouthing their pilot for failing again, so they've put a lot of work into it.

Point missed....... Im talking about top range affordability.

And pootling downwind in a Moody 33 with a bit of headsail out in severe gale conditions, surfing down waves and hand steering is just as exciting on the boat that contains all your worldly posessions as burning up some sponsors dough elsewhere. Trust me on this.....

I was impressed though with a bolt standard autohelm (Raymarine) fitted to a Bav 49 whilst surfing westwards last year from Antigua to Panama in breaking seas and 50+ knots of breeze.

So as winning the lottery is not an option, us plebs will stick with dreaming about what can be bought and how well hydrovane boats are doing in the GGR!

 

[Seajet]

So if I've missed it, how much do these Southern Ocean compatible autopilots cost and why ?

 

[bbg]

Point missed....... Im talking about top range affordability.

And pootling downwind in a Moody 33 with a bit of headsail out in severe gale conditions, surfing down waves and hand steering is just as exciting on the boat that contains all your worldly posessions as burning up some sponsors dough elsewhere. Trust me on this.....

I was impressed though with a bolt standard autohelm (Raymarine) fitted to a Bav 49 whilst surfing westwards last year from Antigua to Panama in breaking seas and 50+ knots of breeze.

So as winning the lottery is not an option, us plebs will stick with dreaming about what can be bought and how well hydrovane boats are doing in the GGR!

You missed my point, which started this exchange. I was specifically responding to Seajet, who said:

A singlehander can't slalom down waves at 15+ knots for days on end, and nor can an autopilot, so it seems one has to take the traditional ' make it strong and tough it out ' approach.
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?503714-Golden-Globe-Race/page9#OMWwIyTdiz9AY648.99

That is just wrong. Autopilots can (and do) steer offshore planing boats for days on end while they are under spinnaker. Expensive, yes. But they do exist.