JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I am still interested to know what regulations apply to racing on international waters.
Golden globe - one opinion
- Thread starter GHA
- Start date
Thanks. I am still interested to know what regulations apply to racing on international waters.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Now there's an Act of Faith!
There are plenty of accounts by deeply-experienced blue-water sailors to suggest that all the kit, fine boats and all the fine judgement available - money no object - doesn't quite manage to 'dodge the bullet' all the time. Plenty of those b-w sailors have extensive Pacific and Antipodean seasons under their belts, have lots of Great Capes carved on their bedposts, and even have a full spectrum of white-sails flyers to their names.
Their names appear in the likes of 'Heavy Weather Sailing' ( Bruce/Coles ), 'Heavy Weather Guide' ( Kotsch/Henderson ), 'Drag Device DataBase' ( Shane et al ), other yottie forums, and down through the decades in the 'RCC Journals'..... together with their cautionary tales. Biscay crossings have always taken a tithe from those who pass by and, lest we too easily forget, one of the worst storms around these islands destroyed boats and killed 15 crew, in the Celtic Sea, in August.
Until Force 4 stocks a 'Beam Me Up, Scottie' badge we can buy, we need constantly to be on guard against our own complacency.....
Perhaps it's the right time of year to re-read the likes of the RORC's Fastnet Report.... and some of the other tales. They're not fiction.
The boats of 1979 have very little to do with the modern cruisers of today. And the forecasting of weather has very little in common either... See how in 2007, with another very serious bout of weather (though not quite as serious) due to hit the Fastnet fleet in exactly the same place it was correctly forecast before the start and the race start postponed to avoid the fleet being in the Irish sea when the worst of the weather came through.
Have a look at the likes of the Pogos, the JPK45 etc. See how they are designed from the start as offshore cruisers with great sheltered positions for the on watch crew - one of the most frequently cited issues when talking about crew fatigue. And then see the videos of them sailing in a bit of breeze... The comparison with the Rustler 36 etc of the GG is almost completely invalid.
Your point that people will still get caught out is valid. But I guess you have to ask yourself, would you rather be in a boat that has the speed potential to plan to avoid the worst of the weather, or would you rather be in a super tough slow boat that is far less able to get out of the way of approaching serious weather... The class 40s have raced through the southern ocean. They didn't exactly have the same issues as the GG fleet getting caught up in weather...
Your list of cautionary tales are not talking about the new breed of fast cruisers that I'm talking about. I would agree that there probably isn't enough long term evidence to suggest that they are definitely a better way to go.... But equally there is plenty of evidence that there is weather out there that can be too much for boats that are considered the most seaworthy available. So perhaps having a strategy that your first defence is good weather routing and speed to dodge the systems is not such a bad plan?
flaming
Well-Known Member
That's a great book, but it does rather make my point.... Slow traditional boat gets caught by weather.
Such tales, and I am an avid reader of them, are fantastic stuff. But they are not representative of what the yards of today are designing and building as world girdling cruisers, or the level of weather routing now available. And even then, the passage around the Horn is not really on an awful lot of itineraries for the sort of people who are setting off "around the world". Mostly that's tradewind sailing, where the big weather dangers will be hurricanes and cyclones. And in that case I would far, far rather have the speed potential to get out of the way than feel good about my tough little boat to cope with them....
Seajet
...
Spiffing, but even the keenest red hottest helmsman / woman singlehanded can't keep up heavy duty slaloming between big breaking waves for more than a few hours, and electrical autopilots are unreliable.
- My 1st generation Mini Seacourse had a built in sense of humour, when the battery voltage dropped it died with an AmDram style " Aargh " and shoved the helm hard over
- and modern ones are still not to be trusted inc the 3D wave / broach sensing job a chap at my club invented.
There's no substitute for a bunch of fit gorillas on standby, if these aren't avaialable in a cruiser one has to adopt slow speed tactics - the Colin Archer bulletproof approach which I agree is dodgy to say the least at places like Cape Horn.
And have you got ' Once Is Enough ' yet ?
- My 1st generation Mini Seacourse had a built in sense of humour, when the battery voltage dropped it died with an AmDram style " Aargh " and shoved the helm hard over
- and modern ones are still not to be trusted inc the 3D wave / broach sensing job a chap at my club invented.There's no substitute for a bunch of fit gorillas on standby, if these aren't avaialable in a cruiser one has to adopt slow speed tactics - the Colin Archer bulletproof approach which I agree is dodgy to say the least at places like Cape Horn.
And have you got ' Once Is Enough ' yet ?
flaming
Well-Known Member
You misunderstand my point. The point with these fast cruisers is not to go fast in the strong winds, but have enough speed to be able to use "normal" conditions (say up to 30kts TWS) to position yourself such that you don't actually get hit by 40+ knots...
I am not talking about storm survival, I'm talking about avoiding the storm in the first place...
(But P.s.... You're very out of date with your opinion of modern autopilots as would be fitted to something like a Pogo....)
Roberto
Well-Known Member
You can t have both worlds, either you cruise or you race. Lighter faster boats surely have their advantages, as long as they are kept light. Try loading a JPK in the same configuration as a regular long term cruising boat (which may mean from +1 to + several tons) and you get a very dangerous boat, a lot more than adding 2 tons to a heavier boats, displacement being a primary data for all structural elements from hull scantlings to rig design.
So either one accepts going "cruising" in a light and fast boat with race-style equipment (which of course has all sort of effects upon anchoring, tankage, dinghy, energy production, etc etc), it is of course feasible but it s a matter of personal preference, each to his own about what one needs to cruise.
To get a sensible loading capacity in fast boats one must go up in size, up to where the load you need to carry is a sensible proportion of displacement. At the extreme, if one needs several tons to be comfortable, then the likes of Dashews boats in the 60-70-80 ft range are a good option.
flaming
Well-Known Member
I'm not talking about their racing line. I'm talking about the boats they are designing with the design goal of long term cruising. Given the yard's reputation, and ditto pogo, you have to assume they've thought about how long term cruisers will load the boat.
Seajet
...
Flaming,
I respect your racing prowess but common sense doesn't go out of date, I've done a fair bit of racing ( lots in dinghies ) and a lot of cruising, no way does one trust an electrical supply let alone a single autopilot on long voyages.
I respect your racing prowess but common sense doesn't go out of date, I've done a fair bit of racing ( lots in dinghies ) and a lot of cruising, no way does one trust an electrical supply let alone a single autopilot on long voyages.
flaming
Well-Known Member
We seem to be talking at cross purposes... Since I would generally agree with you. I read your comment to refer to the autopilot not being able to cope with strong wind and waves, and that was what I was disagreeing with...
Electrical supply is generally taken care of on fast boats with a transom mounted hydro generator, with backup of the main engine and some solar, especially for times at anchor. Autopilots are of course electrical, and can fail, but the modern ones are a lot better than they used to be. If you're very worried (and not budget conscious) you can of course take the IMOCA route of having 2 pilots with completely separate drives and control units permanently plumbed in for redundancy.
Seajet
...
There's no such thing as too much electrical power on a modern boat, I'm changing the battery and system on mine right now which may make me particularly sensitive to the subject; what are these hydro generators you speak of, I'd have thought such things incurr excessive drag for racing boats, I'm clearly out of touch in that regard at least.
When I fitted an Autohelm 2000 - one might consider it a bit oversize for my 22' but not the earlier version on my 30', both effectively high aspect fin keel - we deliberately tried the 2000 in reasonably large quartering seas, it was MUCH more capable than the 1000 but I still wouldn't sleep relying on it or the supply.
As I say I'm interested in the hydro generators...
When I fitted an Autohelm 2000 - one might consider it a bit oversize for my 22' but not the earlier version on my 30', both effectively high aspect fin keel - we deliberately tried the 2000 in reasonably large quartering seas, it was MUCH more capable than the 1000 but I still wouldn't sleep relying on it or the supply.
As I say I'm interested in the hydro generators...
zoidberg
Well-Known Member
There's a lot of large 'Ifs' in the above arguments, which attempt to validate a 'general rule' from a couple of rather specific and perhaps dubious examples.
However, there is enough convergence going on, in that protagonists are at least hearing each others' points of view....
I'd far rather have a well-equipped Class 40 than a Rustler 36 ( I think! ), even if I now prefer not to race either. I also accept the point that 'racing' old, tired and heavy-displacement last-century cruising boats seems an exercise in masochism.
No electronic devices, even today, can guarantee avoidance of ALL serious weather. Nor avoidance of ALL other hazards at sea. 'Ultime' trimarans break up. Open 60s find Caribbean reefs and rocks. Circumstances - or perhaps Poseidon - conspire at times to leave no options but to try to tough it out, using one's limited skills and energies.
Whether racers or cruisers, or both at times, we are best served by learning all that's usable from the experience of others and applying it in the mitigation ( navigation? ) of risk at sea.
I've sailed inter alia an 1800s replica lugger and a Rival 36, each some considerable distance, without viable engines and I've raced successfully a featherweight all-carbon trimaran, again some considerable distance. During the Fastnet Race of 2003, for example, I/we used one of several techniques, successfully beating all our larger competition, but first mentioned by British ocean racer and publisher, K. Adlard Coles, who said:
None of our class-competitors carried gear for deep water kedging...... Coles used a reel of piano wire. I had a reel of 6mm Dyneema, which was cheaper.
I/we had tried to learn the lessons of previous participants. We had a heavy-weather plan and gear, as well as one for light weather. Fundamentally, boat gear fit for deep-water use has to be tough enough NOT TO FAIL. On many of today's light skimming dishes, that's no longer the case. Carbon fibre rudders and mountings still fail......
However, there is enough convergence going on, in that protagonists are at least hearing each others' points of view....
I'd far rather have a well-equipped Class 40 than a Rustler 36 ( I think! ), even if I now prefer not to race either. I also accept the point that 'racing' old, tired and heavy-displacement last-century cruising boats seems an exercise in masochism.
No electronic devices, even today, can guarantee avoidance of ALL serious weather. Nor avoidance of ALL other hazards at sea. 'Ultime' trimarans break up. Open 60s find Caribbean reefs and rocks. Circumstances - or perhaps Poseidon - conspire at times to leave no options but to try to tough it out, using one's limited skills and energies.
Whether racers or cruisers, or both at times, we are best served by learning all that's usable from the experience of others and applying it in the mitigation ( navigation? ) of risk at sea.
I've sailed inter alia an 1800s replica lugger and a Rival 36, each some considerable distance, without viable engines and I've raced successfully a featherweight all-carbon trimaran, again some considerable distance. During the Fastnet Race of 2003, for example, I/we used one of several techniques, successfully beating all our larger competition, but first mentioned by British ocean racer and publisher, K. Adlard Coles, who said:
None of our class-competitors carried gear for deep water kedging...... Coles used a reel of piano wire. I had a reel of 6mm Dyneema, which was cheaper.
I/we had tried to learn the lessons of previous participants. We had a heavy-weather plan and gear, as well as one for light weather. Fundamentally, boat gear fit for deep-water use has to be tough enough NOT TO FAIL. On many of today's light skimming dishes, that's no longer the case. Carbon fibre rudders and mountings still fail......
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flaming
Well-Known Member
This sort of thing.
https://www.wattandsea.com/en/products/cruising-hydrogenerators
Widely used on race boats, Most of the IMOCAs use them and the Volvo 65s mandated them. Generally thought to have very little penalty to speed when going fast, and certainly less than having to carry fuel for their power needs over a circumnavigation. Retractable and they use them for a few hours a day rather than all the time. Makes perfect sense on a long distance cruiser where the couple of decimal places of a knot trade off for all the power you can use seems like a good deal. Obviously the faster the boat the more efficient the charging will be...
With the best respect to a tiller pilot like the 2000, it is generations behind what the latest NKE or B&G fully plumbed in pilots can do. Think Sopwith Camel vs F35.... Even the latest raymarine plumbed in pilots are out of sight of the 2000, and Raymarine are generally considered to be behind the curve in pilot terms.
When you look at what they're now using to help the pilot decide what to do, it's no wonder that a basic tiller pilot with little more than a fluxgate compass is not really playing the same game...
http://www.raymarine.co.uk/view/?id=8239
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
Morgans Cloud also talk about speed and weather routing in their other articles. The point that Flaming is making is very relevant to modern cruiser development. Even my old tub now has a modern auto helm (still to be tested in heavy weather) and will have a modern navigation system within the year. I expect to be able to use good weather routing advice and have the boat do the steering. Of course, my Rival will not be fast, but modern route planning, modern systems, will make my life easier by far. I will carry a JSD.
Regarding ocean racing in old boats, it should continue, if there is demand. I would hate to think that nanny knows best. There is room for both hi tech and low tech. In fact, the low tech racing is far more interesting that high tech, which is bit like F1, boring and predictable. The GGR became very interesting to follow, in my opinion.
Regarding ocean racing in old boats, it should continue, if there is demand. I would hate to think that nanny knows best. There is room for both hi tech and low tech. In fact, the low tech racing is far more interesting that high tech, which is bit like F1, boring and predictable. The GGR became very interesting to follow, in my opinion.
Seajet
...
I've discovered sailing designs, like wives and everything else in life, are a compromise between performance and displacement !
My trusty Anderson 22 is by no means the lightest 22' going, but probably by pure luck has the right sleek hull shape, low wetted area keel drag and moderate rig to keep going while others like the Hurley 22 and other larger boats stop dead.
I've always thought the moderately heavy displacement lets her keep punching into waves rather than getting stopped by them.
I think a larger more powerful extrapolation is the relatively heavy She 36, an example of which ' Lorelei ' did so well in the 1979 Fastnet Race, she went around picking up survivors from lesser boats; there's a painting of her at Redcliffe YC, Wareham, with the inscription by her then owner
" I knew she wouldn't let me down "
Seems to me there's something to be said for a bit of displacement ( and the right shape ) for punching to windward.
My trusty Anderson 22 is by no means the lightest 22' going, but probably by pure luck has the right sleek hull shape, low wetted area keel drag and moderate rig to keep going while others like the Hurley 22 and other larger boats stop dead.
I've always thought the moderately heavy displacement lets her keep punching into waves rather than getting stopped by them.
I think a larger more powerful extrapolation is the relatively heavy She 36, an example of which ' Lorelei ' did so well in the 1979 Fastnet Race, she went around picking up survivors from lesser boats; there's a painting of her at Redcliffe YC, Wareham, with the inscription by her then owner
" I knew she wouldn't let me down "
Seems to me there's something to be said for a bit of displacement ( and the right shape ) for punching to windward.
dom
Well-Known Member
I agree that it's a bad idea to rely on a single AP. I, for example, have two independent AP systems, with the only point of comonality being the linear drive, of which I have a spare.
Re the ability of modern 9-axis APs; these have the power to detect heading, rate of change, and acceleration in all three planes. The software does need to be optimised for the boat and this can be a fiddly process. However, once working it works well, including downhill in big quartering seas; not perfect, but certainly better than a reasonably competent helmsman.
Aside from this modern boats are far faster and many will be absolutely cranking it with TWS in the 40s. This opens the world of good dynamic routing, aided by fast comms to receive instant weather updates, good software, and the right skills.
Re data regarding new fast cruisers, I agree that it's too early to be sure. But what the GG does demonstrate is that the kind of vessels many of us instinctively associate with good heavy weather performance are in fact more vulnerable than imagined.
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flaming
Well-Known Member
If there is a demand then of course it should continue. I have to confess that whilst I started off following it very closely I lost interest long before they were into the Southern Ocean. Very much unlike the Vendee Globe.
GHA
Well-Known Member
In the southern ocean without a JSD out the back whenever it gets nasty and with no accurate weather forecasting anyway..
dom
Well-Known Member
In terms of the data the proposition that trad boat + JSD affords exceptional survivability is entirely unproven. I carry one, but it's no magic bullet as Morgans Cloud suggest.
The GG are going to have to put on their thinking caps to figure this out and it will be interesting to see what the organisers come up with.
Seajet
...
I had an accidental sort of lesson in my first year of cruiser ownership -
KEEP POWER ON !
We were on the way back from Dartmouth, passing Portland Bill in a SW F5.
I have to admit the boat was badly set up, reefing was arduous - I learned from this, now all the kit is ball bearing ) ...mum and our dog were shut below while dad and I tied ourselves to the mainsheet traveller - harnesses were regarded a luxury pre-'79 Fastnet but I'd read plenty of books like ' Heavy Weather Sailing ' so knew the reputation of Portland Race.
As a matter of fact we didn't have guardrails or a pushpit either, just a pulpit.
As we approached The Race there was a line of white water crinkling the horizon, I knew we were in for a dusting.
A Twister had set off at the same time as us, the singlehanded skipper rather over-reacted to the big waves and reefed right down to trysail size with a small foresail, probably no.2 jib not down to storm size.
And he sat and got pummelled, pooped...
We by luck rather than judgement slalomed between the waves - my dinghy racing experience may have helped, the Andersons' rudder authourity definitely did - and we got through with barely a splash on deck.
The Twister came in much later and rafted alongside, he was super- ballistic upset we'd got through unscathed while his traditional super-seaworthy classic got pooped - so I learned ' keep power on '
KEEP POWER ON !
We were on the way back from Dartmouth, passing Portland Bill in a SW F5.
I have to admit the boat was badly set up, reefing was arduous - I learned from this, now all the kit is ball bearing ) ...mum and our dog were shut below while dad and I tied ourselves to the mainsheet traveller - harnesses were regarded a luxury pre-'79 Fastnet but I'd read plenty of books like ' Heavy Weather Sailing ' so knew the reputation of Portland Race.
As a matter of fact we didn't have guardrails or a pushpit either, just a pulpit.
As we approached The Race there was a line of white water crinkling the horizon, I knew we were in for a dusting.
A Twister had set off at the same time as us, the singlehanded skipper rather over-reacted to the big waves and reefed right down to trysail size with a small foresail, probably no.2 jib not down to storm size.
And he sat and got pummelled, pooped...
We by luck rather than judgement slalomed between the waves - my dinghy racing experience may have helped, the Andersons' rudder authourity definitely did - and we got through with barely a splash on deck.
The Twister came in much later and rafted alongside, he was super- ballistic upset we'd got through unscathed while his traditional super-seaworthy classic got pooped - so I learned ' keep power on '
doug748
Well-Known Member
I am all for digression but the achievements of modern racing boats is not really of the essence, we either see the attraction of a round the world race in vintage boats or we don't.
We either say it is just too dangerous, or maybe slow/boring, and fix our attention on sailing projected into the future. Or we maybe support the GG races and see how they could be made better in the light of experience.
Can't say I am an expert, nor have I read the Notice of Race for 2022 but here's a few thoughts to get the ball rolling.
Perhaps we could see:
The field opened up for all boats designed or made up to 1967, or maybe up to 1969. Tie things down with a simple length limit perhaps, or an extra class in addition to the proposed Joshua boats. This would spark a bit more interest and, arguably, participation.
You can't stick the technology genie back into the bottle, so:
Allow access to weather routing information.
When Abhilash Tomy was seriously injured there was a similarly slow boat, sailing the same route, in his vicinity - as this second boat had the benefit of a routing team he was happily some 100+ miles to the north of the worst weather.
Allow electronic position finding.
I recall a fuss when one contestant was given a lead on his position. As he was bearing downwind on Cape Horn, it is not surprising he took it. Restricting GPS usage only leads to having to impose improvised penalties at sea, which can end in farce. It could have been tragic in the case of Mark Slats who, fighting for second place, was given positional weather information. This brought uncertainty from the organisers, plus talk of arbitrary penalties, just as Slats was bearing down on the finish in the face of a rising Biscay storm.
Give the skippers some leeway on routes.
Sailing a line outside a notional ice limit is possibly not something skippers need to be burdened with in bad southern conditions.
We either say it is just too dangerous, or maybe slow/boring, and fix our attention on sailing projected into the future. Or we maybe support the GG races and see how they could be made better in the light of experience.
Can't say I am an expert, nor have I read the Notice of Race for 2022 but here's a few thoughts to get the ball rolling.
Perhaps we could see:
The field opened up for all boats designed or made up to 1967, or maybe up to 1969. Tie things down with a simple length limit perhaps, or an extra class in addition to the proposed Joshua boats. This would spark a bit more interest and, arguably, participation.
You can't stick the technology genie back into the bottle, so:
Allow access to weather routing information.
When Abhilash Tomy was seriously injured there was a similarly slow boat, sailing the same route, in his vicinity - as this second boat had the benefit of a routing team he was happily some 100+ miles to the north of the worst weather.
Allow electronic position finding.
I recall a fuss when one contestant was given a lead on his position. As he was bearing downwind on Cape Horn, it is not surprising he took it. Restricting GPS usage only leads to having to impose improvised penalties at sea, which can end in farce. It could have been tragic in the case of Mark Slats who, fighting for second place, was given positional weather information. This brought uncertainty from the organisers, plus talk of arbitrary penalties, just as Slats was bearing down on the finish in the face of a rising Biscay storm.
Give the skippers some leeway on routes.
Sailing a line outside a notional ice limit is possibly not something skippers need to be burdened with in bad southern conditions.