Sgeir
Well-Known Member
Very interesting, but what is the point you're making?
Global warming - a Bollockquilism
- Thread starter Chris_Robb
- Start date
photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
Ah, good man, I dont actually know what my RR gets, my driver see's to all my motoring requirements...wot wot.
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halcyon
Well-Known Member
In the 70's /80's we had a local firm developing geo-thermal energy, closed due to funding stopping from HMG. They carried making money by drilling holes for the oil industry.
We had a local firm developing wind turbines, closed due to HMG removing funding.
BL had a 3 cylinder mini in the 70's /80's doing 100mpg on petrol, closed down due to lack of funding by HMG. What could that engine have been doing today with development ? what happened to that engine, we gave it to China the other year with Rover, why lack of funding by HMG.
Why does Carbon come to the front, car firms want to sell Hybrid cars, VW has a green diesel, every area some firm has something to market. HMG can increase tax on the back of it, but invest in no.
Should we do something yes, but buying what other people make, or have to sell, may not be the best solution and is only making us poorer.
A few years ago when we had the radiation problem with sheep, after the fire in Russia. We had a report on BBC or ITV news from a scientist that was stating that HMG was doing nothing about radiactivity in cows, which was twice that in sheep, and were still allowing it's sale. This went out a couple of times as verbal, then they went to a hillside in the Lake district, and a interview with this chap. It came on, complete with cows, and after some preamble, the chap was asked what the scientific proof was,
a cow is twice the size of a sheep, so must have twice the radiation.
I thought it funny at the time, and the report never appeared on the news again, but these experts some times worry me.
Brian
We had a local firm developing wind turbines, closed due to HMG removing funding.
BL had a 3 cylinder mini in the 70's /80's doing 100mpg on petrol, closed down due to lack of funding by HMG. What could that engine have been doing today with development ? what happened to that engine, we gave it to China the other year with Rover, why lack of funding by HMG.
Why does Carbon come to the front, car firms want to sell Hybrid cars, VW has a green diesel, every area some firm has something to market. HMG can increase tax on the back of it, but invest in no.
Should we do something yes, but buying what other people make, or have to sell, may not be the best solution and is only making us poorer.
A few years ago when we had the radiation problem with sheep, after the fire in Russia. We had a report on BBC or ITV news from a scientist that was stating that HMG was doing nothing about radiactivity in cows, which was twice that in sheep, and were still allowing it's sale. This went out a couple of times as verbal, then they went to a hillside in the Lake district, and a interview with this chap. It came on, complete with cows, and after some preamble, the chap was asked what the scientific proof was,
a cow is twice the size of a sheep, so must have twice the radiation.
I thought it funny at the time, and the report never appeared on the news again, but these experts some times worry me.
Brian
Robin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The yanks seem to take a perverse pride in how wastefull they are..... Theres a comment on another thread today were a fella from Florida is proud of his Lincoln getting less than 24mpg!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
That is a comment made frequently by people who know little about the USA. Firstly 24mpg US is nearer 27mpg Imperial because our gallons are bigger than theirs. Secondly the USA is a VAST country and people drive lots more miles than we do, for one thing the distances between towns are greater than over here in toytown. One difference however is that aside from rush hour problems around some major cities like New York, Washington and Chicago, traffic actually FLOWS. It is quite possible in the US to drive at the speed limit of 70mph now in most States, on cruise control eating up the miles at surprisingly economical fuel consumption even in a big car. Over here we sit in endless traffic jams, in generally smaller cars whilst actually burning as much fuel overall simply because we are not going anywhere. The guy claiming 24mpg was talking about having made a 1,000 mile journey - would you really want to drive the equivalent of from London to John O Groats and back in a Smart Car???
The yanks seem to take a perverse pride in how wastefull they are..... Theres a comment on another thread today were a fella from Florida is proud of his Lincoln getting less than 24mpg!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
That is a comment made frequently by people who know little about the USA. Firstly 24mpg US is nearer 27mpg Imperial because our gallons are bigger than theirs. Secondly the USA is a VAST country and people drive lots more miles than we do, for one thing the distances between towns are greater than over here in toytown. One difference however is that aside from rush hour problems around some major cities like New York, Washington and Chicago, traffic actually FLOWS. It is quite possible in the US to drive at the speed limit of 70mph now in most States, on cruise control eating up the miles at surprisingly economical fuel consumption even in a big car. Over here we sit in endless traffic jams, in generally smaller cars whilst actually burning as much fuel overall simply because we are not going anywhere. The guy claiming 24mpg was talking about having made a 1,000 mile journey - would you really want to drive the equivalent of from London to John O Groats and back in a Smart Car???
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Re: Oh for goodness sake - what will your grandchildren say about you?
You are wasting your time. The data is complex and takes someone with a brain and the willingness to absorb it to analyse. It's much easier to say " It's all rubbish" " government conspiracy" " excuse to raise taxes" etc etc. That requires no brain at all. It's Sunday and raining. No one has anything better to do. You will never get these dinosaurs to even consider that there is a chance that it is actually happening, let alone read a report.....
You are wasting your time. The data is complex and takes someone with a brain and the willingness to absorb it to analyse. It's much easier to say " It's all rubbish" " government conspiracy" " excuse to raise taxes" etc etc. That requires no brain at all. It's Sunday and raining. No one has anything better to do. You will never get these dinosaurs to even consider that there is a chance that it is actually happening, let alone read a report.....
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
Re: Oh for goodness sake - what will your grandchildren say about you?
[ QUOTE ]
You will never get these dinosaurs to even consider that there is a chance that it is actually happening, let alone read a report.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Have you read it?
Like you said - it's Sunday & it's raining, so... I've read it
There is some contradictory evidence in there.
We are being hit round the ears with the sanitised/summarised "Janet & John" version which says the evidence is unequivocal /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif - yet the full version says it isn't. Unequivocal that is.
You're right - how dare any of us to be cynical about this /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
[ QUOTE ]
You will never get these dinosaurs to even consider that there is a chance that it is actually happening, let alone read a report.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Have you read it?
Like you said - it's Sunday & it's raining, so... I've read it
There is some contradictory evidence in there.
We are being hit round the ears with the sanitised/summarised "Janet & John" version which says the evidence is unequivocal /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif - yet the full version says it isn't. Unequivocal that is.
You're right - how dare any of us to be cynical about this /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Sixpence
Well-Known Member
Re: Oh for goodness sake - what will your grandchildren say about you?
Aha , I see your argument now
I'm just too THICK to understand
I hate to be the bearer of this bit of news but the majority of the British public are just as THICK
If you wanted to make me see your point of view you just cocked up big time
Now please excuse me while I go outside (it aint rainin ere guv) and throw another tyre on the bonfire , the smoke might even be viewable from space by now
Insulting those that don't believe it's caused by our actions does nothing to make me change my mind , try showing me some REAL evidence that proves it IS NOT just a part of the normal cycle of events , show me charts showing levels from before the last ice age and then tell me what caused that , but don't just brush people with opposing opinions aside by calling me THICK
Aha , I see your argument now
I'm just too THICK to understand
I hate to be the bearer of this bit of news but the majority of the British public are just as THICK
If you wanted to make me see your point of view you just cocked up big time
Now please excuse me while I go outside (it aint rainin ere guv) and throw another tyre on the bonfire , the smoke might even be viewable from space by now
Insulting those that don't believe it's caused by our actions does nothing to make me change my mind , try showing me some REAL evidence that proves it IS NOT just a part of the normal cycle of events , show me charts showing levels from before the last ice age and then tell me what caused that , but don't just brush people with opposing opinions aside by calling me THICK
halcyon
Well-Known Member
Re: Oh for goodness sake - what will your grandchildren say about you?
Following link will give a clue for the 300 year period weather 1600 to1900
Brian
Following link will give a clue for the 300 year period weather 1600 to1900
Brian
photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
Thats the excuse the yanks always use for running cars which are hugely wastefull,
I am Canuck and when I lived in Canada I always drove smaller cars, my folks do as well and regularly drive to Vancouver from Calgary (700 miles) with no problem... Virtually all my Friends in Canada drive smaller cars as well, and if you wanna talk about driving big distances in poor weather, talk to a Canadian.
It anoys me that they always seem to argue that they need to burn more petrol to cover a distance because they live in a big country. Total Cobblers. The average yank covers 12k per annum, just like the average person here, and most people use their car the same way we use ours here, driving down the shops....
The yanks just build crap innefficient cars, they need a good kick up the backside. Plus access to high quality low sulpher diesel.
I am Canuck and when I lived in Canada I always drove smaller cars, my folks do as well and regularly drive to Vancouver from Calgary (700 miles) with no problem... Virtually all my Friends in Canada drive smaller cars as well, and if you wanna talk about driving big distances in poor weather, talk to a Canadian.
It anoys me that they always seem to argue that they need to burn more petrol to cover a distance because they live in a big country. Total Cobblers. The average yank covers 12k per annum, just like the average person here, and most people use their car the same way we use ours here, driving down the shops....
The yanks just build crap innefficient cars, they need a good kick up the backside. Plus access to high quality low sulpher diesel.
Sixpence
Well-Known Member
Re: Oh for goodness sake - what will your grandchildren say about you?
Brian , thanks for the link , I like the comments at the end
PS: If it happened today it would be put down to global warming, back then it was just extreme weather.
I can remember freezing winters and scorching summers , as I can remember miserable summers and warm winters . I can remember a winter in the 80's when snow fall was so heavy in East Anglia that the A1 at RAF Wittering was closed due to lorries getting stuck in snow drifts , I can remember digging cars out of those snow drifts and taking them to the rescue point , our canteen
But everything I can see in the link and every weather pattern I can remember , to me , is just a normal cycle of British weather . It's one of the reasons forecasting the weather has always been so hard . They had wierd weather patterns back then and didn't blame man , if they had done , then in 1868 when the temperature in Kent got to 100.6F the MMGW theory might have got somewhere by now
Brian , thanks for the link , I like the comments at the end
PS: If it happened today it would be put down to global warming, back then it was just extreme weather.
I can remember freezing winters and scorching summers , as I can remember miserable summers and warm winters . I can remember a winter in the 80's when snow fall was so heavy in East Anglia that the A1 at RAF Wittering was closed due to lorries getting stuck in snow drifts , I can remember digging cars out of those snow drifts and taking them to the rescue point , our canteen
But everything I can see in the link and every weather pattern I can remember , to me , is just a normal cycle of British weather . It's one of the reasons forecasting the weather has always been so hard . They had wierd weather patterns back then and didn't blame man , if they had done , then in 1868 when the temperature in Kent got to 100.6F the MMGW theory might have got somewhere by now
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Re: Oh for goodness sake - what will your grandchildren say about you?
As the person who made the post that included the reference to Aids. I apologise for not expressing myself clearly enough. I was not for one moment suggesting it was not a problem. By "our society" I was referring perhaps parochiallyto the UK where it is confined to particular subsets of society. While the number of people affected may be large, it is not in relation to the total population of the UK. My argument is that the scare stories of the propogandists diverted efforts away from the real problem, and in particular the resources to help the individuals that are affected. Even now, much of the relief for Aids is provided by charities rather than shared amongst the population as a whole.
The situation as we know is very different in other parts of the world where in some countries it does indeed appear to be "everybody's" disease. However, these are very different societies from ours, and although the basic mechanisms by which the disease is spread are the same, the environment in which it is spread is very different. It is only in recent years that an effective global response has begun to emerge, again largely driven by charities and othe non-governmental agencies.
Maybe on reflection the "Scare story" topic is not appropriate for a yachting forum. It is very complex and contested and a flip flop debate over the ether is not going to move it forward.
As the person who made the post that included the reference to Aids. I apologise for not expressing myself clearly enough. I was not for one moment suggesting it was not a problem. By "our society" I was referring perhaps parochiallyto the UK where it is confined to particular subsets of society. While the number of people affected may be large, it is not in relation to the total population of the UK. My argument is that the scare stories of the propogandists diverted efforts away from the real problem, and in particular the resources to help the individuals that are affected. Even now, much of the relief for Aids is provided by charities rather than shared amongst the population as a whole.
The situation as we know is very different in other parts of the world where in some countries it does indeed appear to be "everybody's" disease. However, these are very different societies from ours, and although the basic mechanisms by which the disease is spread are the same, the environment in which it is spread is very different. It is only in recent years that an effective global response has begun to emerge, again largely driven by charities and othe non-governmental agencies.
Maybe on reflection the "Scare story" topic is not appropriate for a yachting forum. It is very complex and contested and a flip flop debate over the ether is not going to move it forward.
ShipsWoofy
Well-Known Member
Re: Oh for goodness sake - what will your grandchildren say about you?
Except America it seems. Where other countries send truck loads of condoms to Ghana and many other countries, the American Christian folk don't. They believe the cure in Africa should come from abstaining from sexual relationships.
This came from the Stephen Fry program HIV and me, which I have no reason not to believe.
A similar case of charity is the Americans forcing some African nations to grow rice to help out village economies, the Africans are getting quite good at it now, but, this is the good bit, the aid sent by America is, highly refined American rice. This tastes better than African rice, but has little nutritional value. But, tasting better means the African farmers can not even sell their own rice in the markets as the people have a taste for American white rice. The Africans do not have the facility or capability to grow such expensive crops.
Sorry, thread drift, sort of..
Except America it seems. Where other countries send truck loads of condoms to Ghana and many other countries, the American Christian folk don't. They believe the cure in Africa should come from abstaining from sexual relationships.
This came from the Stephen Fry program HIV and me, which I have no reason not to believe.
A similar case of charity is the Americans forcing some African nations to grow rice to help out village economies, the Africans are getting quite good at it now, but, this is the good bit, the aid sent by America is, highly refined American rice. This tastes better than African rice, but has little nutritional value. But, tasting better means the African farmers can not even sell their own rice in the markets as the people have a taste for American white rice. The Africans do not have the facility or capability to grow such expensive crops.
Sorry, thread drift, sort of..
Sgeir
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The guy claiming 24mpg was talking about having made a 1,000 mile journey - would you really want to drive the equivalent of from London to John O Groats and back in a Smart Car???
[/ QUOTE ]I don't drive very much these days, but am puzzled by your attitude to fuel economy. What has a Smart car got to do with it? We average 54.5mpg across all cycles, urban to motorway. OK, it's a diesel, and certainly not a Smart, but I'd have thought anything less than about 45mpg was profligate given today's engine technology.
The guy claiming 24mpg was talking about having made a 1,000 mile journey - would you really want to drive the equivalent of from London to John O Groats and back in a Smart Car???
[/ QUOTE ]I don't drive very much these days, but am puzzled by your attitude to fuel economy. What has a Smart car got to do with it? We average 54.5mpg across all cycles, urban to motorway. OK, it's a diesel, and certainly not a Smart, but I'd have thought anything less than about 45mpg was profligate given today's engine technology.
Neddie_Seagoon
Well-Known Member
Re: Oh for goodness sake - what will your grandchildren say about you?
[ QUOTE ]
I think that the sceptisicm for GW has been fuelled by this Governments answer to the problem, Taxation.
[/ QUOTE ]
My suspicions have nothing to do with taxation and everything to do with the new puritanism. We go through puritanical cycles periodically, there are some people who innately believe that we are too rich and profligate, that others are too poor and that we the west are taking and wasting global heritage etc. We are not allowed to enjoy ourselves. It has been at different times the same with sex, music, booze, dancing... all have been looked down on by these uber-pure who consider that the world is too good / god-given to waste on scum like us who don't appreciate it. MMGW is just another way of saying "you mustn't use so much energy, it's selfish". Energy is the new booze.
Now when the MMGW crowd can debunk the evidence that shows higher CO2 levels in the pre-industrial past, warmer climatic cycles in the past, and show direct causal link to GW that cannot be explained by other means and has not occurred before in our pre-industrialised past I'll start listening and acting. Until then, endless repetition of statements does not make them true, and I am used to being repeatedly lied to by 21st century "scientists" and governments, who have repeatedly and demonstrably lied about the damage done by tobacco and alcohol, the benefits or dangers of various types of "food", the extent and availability of natural resources and a host of other issues.
Maybe it's because I'm a technologist ("applied scientist" for those who don't understand what technology is) that I only believe in science that works - everything else is hypothetical - MMGW included.
[ QUOTE ]
I think that the sceptisicm for GW has been fuelled by this Governments answer to the problem, Taxation.
[/ QUOTE ]
My suspicions have nothing to do with taxation and everything to do with the new puritanism. We go through puritanical cycles periodically, there are some people who innately believe that we are too rich and profligate, that others are too poor and that we the west are taking and wasting global heritage etc. We are not allowed to enjoy ourselves. It has been at different times the same with sex, music, booze, dancing... all have been looked down on by these uber-pure who consider that the world is too good / god-given to waste on scum like us who don't appreciate it. MMGW is just another way of saying "you mustn't use so much energy, it's selfish". Energy is the new booze.
Now when the MMGW crowd can debunk the evidence that shows higher CO2 levels in the pre-industrial past, warmer climatic cycles in the past, and show direct causal link to GW that cannot be explained by other means and has not occurred before in our pre-industrialised past I'll start listening and acting. Until then, endless repetition of statements does not make them true, and I am used to being repeatedly lied to by 21st century "scientists" and governments, who have repeatedly and demonstrably lied about the damage done by tobacco and alcohol, the benefits or dangers of various types of "food", the extent and availability of natural resources and a host of other issues.
Maybe it's because I'm a technologist ("applied scientist" for those who don't understand what technology is) that I only believe in science that works - everything else is hypothetical - MMGW included.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
I'm sure you're right. However which is the better morally? To drive 7000 miles a year at 25 mpg, or drive 21,000 miles a year at 75mpg?
I invariably find that people who do high mileages are simply not managing their time well.
There is a new Polo advert in which it claims you will save the equivalent of 25,000 plastic bags a year.
Wow! Impressive!
erm..........no. At the average annual mileage that would be 2 plastic bags per mile. Do I look impressed? Surely not buying a new car would have less environmental impact (except of course, it's all bollocks anyway)
As I have said too many times to remember.
Global Warming is happening
There is no proof it is man made.
Why can't these two facts be viewed separately?
I invariably find that people who do high mileages are simply not managing their time well.
There is a new Polo advert in which it claims you will save the equivalent of 25,000 plastic bags a year.
Wow! Impressive!
erm..........no. At the average annual mileage that would be 2 plastic bags per mile. Do I look impressed? Surely not buying a new car would have less environmental impact (except of course, it's all bollocks anyway)
As I have said too many times to remember.
Global Warming is happening
There is no proof it is man made.
Why can't these two facts be viewed separately?
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
Re: Oh for goodness sake - what will your grandchildren say about you?
[ QUOTE ]
I have to respond to this. This thread started with someone saying that CO2 levels were too low to have an effect. He went on to say that the absolute levels were being "suppressed"! Both points are patently utter nonsense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Go back and read what I said. - I said that I did not understand how such trace gases could cause the problem. In almost everything I have seen on this the emphasis is on the fact that it has increased by 35%. Never ever in the politically correct world does anyone ever put it into context or explain how an increase of 35% of bugger all is relevant.
My point is that all the arguements we hear are selective to the point that I don't trust anyone in what they say.
I am however a great believer that we should save energy - because it is a limited supply. I think that the message that should be got across more.
[ QUOTE ]
I have to respond to this. This thread started with someone saying that CO2 levels were too low to have an effect. He went on to say that the absolute levels were being "suppressed"! Both points are patently utter nonsense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Go back and read what I said. - I said that I did not understand how such trace gases could cause the problem. In almost everything I have seen on this the emphasis is on the fact that it has increased by 35%. Never ever in the politically correct world does anyone ever put it into context or explain how an increase of 35% of bugger all is relevant.
My point is that all the arguements we hear are selective to the point that I don't trust anyone in what they say.
I am however a great believer that we should save energy - because it is a limited supply. I think that the message that should be got across more.
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The yanks just build crap innefficient cars, they need a good kick up the backside. Plus access to high quality low sulpher diesel.
[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect they won't have much of an industry in a few years....... Not even the yanks want the cars they build.
The yanks just build crap innefficient cars, they need a good kick up the backside. Plus access to high quality low sulpher diesel.
[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect they won't have much of an industry in a few years....... Not even the yanks want the cars they build.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Re: Oh for goodness sake - what will your grandchildren say about you?
Agree 100% with you.
But people on here don't really read what you say and will always miss the detail, unless it provides ammunition to call you thick or stupid or some-such.
The bits where you say something reasonable are no use in a mud-slinging match.
Agree 100% with you.
But people on here don't really read what you say and will always miss the detail, unless it provides ammunition to call you thick or stupid or some-such.
The bits where you say something reasonable are no use in a mud-slinging match.
Sixpence
Well-Known Member
Re: Oh for goodness sake - what will your grandchildren say about you?
Yes , I've noticed that the ones trying to force fead us with what they believe in resort to abuse when we don't do as we're told
Let's try asking them for the solution to it all
Right , for those that think it's all the fault of man I'd like them to explain what they intend to actually DO about it - apart from insulting people.
And how they propose to deal with the economic effects of their actions.
Yes , I've noticed that the ones trying to force fead us with what they believe in resort to abuse when we don't do as we're told
Let's try asking them for the solution to it all
Right , for those that think it's all the fault of man I'd like them to explain what they intend to actually DO about it - apart from insulting people.
And how they propose to deal with the economic effects of their actions.
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
Re: Oh for goodness sake - what will your grandchildren say about you?
[ QUOTE ]
You will never get these dinosaurs to even consider that there is a chance that it is actually happening, let alone read a report.....
[/ QUOTE ]
You completely miss the point. I brought this all up, because honesty in putting the case for GW seems to be absent. The arguements are selective - they ignore contrary evidence, and they treat us with contempt. I am quite open to the thought that GW may be caused by man, I would just like to see that people putting the arguements forward also deal with the negative aspects. I think I would then trust their word rather more.
Right now I don't believe the GWers or the non GWers. They both exterminate the facts that don't suit their arguements.
[ QUOTE ]
You will never get these dinosaurs to even consider that there is a chance that it is actually happening, let alone read a report.....
[/ QUOTE ]
You completely miss the point. I brought this all up, because honesty in putting the case for GW seems to be absent. The arguements are selective - they ignore contrary evidence, and they treat us with contempt. I am quite open to the thought that GW may be caused by man, I would just like to see that people putting the arguements forward also deal with the negative aspects. I think I would then trust their word rather more.
Right now I don't believe the GWers or the non GWers. They both exterminate the facts that don't suit their arguements.